[ttwarrior1]

had hundreds of responses in an intellectual conversation with no trolling on another site. Time to post this on sbr and see the responses and compare them.



listed 1 on some polls as greatest of all time in all sports

What he did in his promo's, out of the ring is not supposed to count , only what he did in the ring.

He lost to a bumb, leon spinks, won on decision in rematch, he lost that fight imo

Some opponents tanked the matches, forgot who but one even layed down on purpose

He lost to joe frazier, he beat joe frazier yet almost lost to a joe frazier that wasn't even close to his former self.

Lost to ken norton, then beat ken

I just don't see it as why he is voted the greatest of all time.

Saying he did alot of stuff out of the ring doesn't count.

So if george foreman beat ali, then foreman would be the greatest athlete of all time,considering he made a comeback late in his career and won the title again?????????

I just don't get it. No , im no kid, im 39 years old and saw every fight he has ever boxed live or on tv or vid



Ps: if i was to show you the match between oscar dela hoya and floyd mayweather jr but it showed the match with cartoon characters so you couldnt tell who is who. After the match 90 percent of the people watching would choose the Oscar Dela hoya character as the winner.

Makes u think

[bobby heenan]

omg stop posting....ya oscar beat floyd! lol....get a grip pal

[Living The Dream]

What he did goes beyond sports. He was the most recognizable athlete in the world at a time where the world was pretty screwed up racially.

[The Kraken]

Are all the doors in your house stripped from the hinges? Just makes things easier, i know

[WvGambler]

He's the greatest ever because he never had to deal with a young Mike Tyson.

[Deuce]

Way before his time.

[Dutchie]

combo of great skill and publicity/flair and a GREAT era for boxing in general.

[DiggityDaggityDo]

He's the greatest ever because he never had to deal with a young Mike Tyson.

A young Iron Mike woulda knocked Ali the fukk out!!!

[CanuckG]

[SharpBoxing]

He is probably the most overrated boxer of all time.

[bobby heenan]

He is probably the most overrated boxer of all time.

oh man...from a guy with devon the great in his avatar....

[KingJD31]

roy jones and mike tyson best ive ever seen to young for ali

[opie1988]

He's the greatest ever because he never had to deal with a young Mike Tyson.

Not even close. Ali would've whipped Tyson's ass easily. Ali was a boxer. Tyson was a puncher.

Lewis, or even Holyfield, would've given Ali much more trouble than Tyson would have. Remember the way both of those guys easily dismantled Tyson.

[ttwarrior1]

here are some responses on another forum

he's not

When I was growing up he wasn't even considered the greatest boxer, it was always disputed. It's only been the last 10-15 years that he has somehow been elevated

Maybe because no American is in the top 3 greatest sportsmen of all the time the American media needs somebody to shove down our throats. The insular sports fans don't appreciated what happens outside the borders


He isn't.

Sugar Ray Robinson is the GOAT...and it's not even close. Those who argue that simply don't know boxing.

In 1951 (the prime of Robinson's career), Sugar Ray had a record of 128-1-2 (84 KO). If you include his amateur career in that record, then he was 213-1-2 by 1951. His lone loss a decision to HOF'er "The Raging Bull" Jake LaMotta. Robinson beat LaMotta in five of six bouts.

Six Time World Champion. Started his career at Lightweight, and toward the end of the career, fought Joey Maxim for the Light Heavyweight Title.

Greatest P4P Boxer of all time.


Ali's greatness transcended sport more than the other great fighters' greatness. Plus his personality. Plus a few unforgettable wars on TV. There you go.

Response

But nothing you mentioned would make him the greatest of all time. It's almost comical that he's considered the greatest of all time.

[ttwarrior1]

Bert list

1. Sugar Ray Robinson
2. Henry Armstrong
3. Wille Pep
4. Joe Louis
5. Harry Greb
6. Benny Leonard
7. Muhammad Ali
8. Roberto Duran
9. Jack Dempsey
10. Jack Johnson
11. Mickey Walker
12. Tony Canzoneri
13. Gene Tunney
14. Rocky Marciano
15. Joe Gans
16. Sam Langford
17. Julio Cesar Chavez
18. Jimmy Wilde
19. Stanley Ketchel
20 Barney Ross
21, Jimmy McLarnin
22. Archie Moore
23. Marcel Cerdan
24. Ezzard Charles
25. Sugar Ray Leonard
26. Joe Walcott (The original)
27. Jake LaMotta
28. Eder Jofre
29. Emile Griffith
30. Terry McGovern
31. George Foreman
32. Johnny Dundee
33. Jose Napoles
34. Pascual Perez
35. Billy Conn
36. Ruben Olivares
37. Joe Frazier
38. Tommy Loughran
39. Sandy Saddler
40. Kid Chocolate
41. Abe Attell
42. Evander Holyfield
43. George Dixon
44. Maxie Rosenbloom
45. Larry Holmes
46. Ted "Kid" Lewis
47. Marvin Hagler
48. Pernell Whitaker
49. Carlos Zarate
50. Thomas Hearns
51. Battling Nelson
52. Beau Jack
53. Ricardo ;Lopez
54. John L. Sullivan
55. Carlos Monzon
56. Alexis Arguello
57. Carmen Basillio
58. Pete Herman
59. Charley Burley
60. Ike Williams
61. Kid Gavilan
62. Jack Britton
63. Dick Tiger
64. Pancho Villa
65. Panama Al Brown
66. Bob Fitszimmons
67. Philadelphia Jack O'Brien
68. Tiger Flowers
69. James J.Corbett
70. Tony Zale
71. Tommy Ryan
72. Georges Carpentier
73, Sonny Liston
74. "Kid" McCoy
75. Bob Foster
76. Freddie Welsh
77. Joe Jeanette
78. Jim Driscoll
79. Jersey Joe Walcott
80. Peter Jackson
81. Ad Wolgast
82. Jack Dempsey (The Nonpareil)
83. Manuel Ortiz
84. James J. Jeffries
85. Salvador Sanchez
86. Jimmy Barry
87. Carlos Ortiz
88. Roy Jones Jr.
89. Wilfredo Gomez
90. Aaron Pryor
91. Bernard Hopkins
92. Mike Gibbons
93. Jack Delaney
94. Johnny Kilbane
95. Willie Ritchie
96. Wilfredo Benitez
97. Packey McFarland
98. Rocky Graziano
99. Lew Jenkins
100. Mike Tyson

[ttwarrior1]

ESPN list

1. Sugar Ray Robinson
2. Muhammad Ali
3. Henry Armstrong
4. Joe Louis
5. Willie Pep
6. Roberto Duran
7. Benny Leonard
8. Jack Johnson
9. Jack Dempsey
10. Sam Langford
11. Joe Gans
12. Sugar Ray Leonard
13. Harry Greb
14. Rocky Marciano
15. Jimmy Wilde
16. Gene Tunney
17. Mickey Walker
18. Archie Moore
19. Stanley Ketchel
20. George Foreman
21. Tony Canzoneri
22. Barney Ross
23. Jimmy McLarnin
24. Julio Cesar Chavez
25. Marcel Cerdan
26. Joe Frazier
27. Ezzard Charles
18. Archie Moore
28. Jake LaMotta
29. Sandy Saddler
30. Terry McGovern
31. Billy Conn
32. Jose Napoles
33. Ruben Olivares
34. Emile Griffith
35. Marvin Hagler
36. Eder Jofre
37. Thomas Hearns
38. Larry Holmes
39. Oscar De La Hoya
40. Evander Holyfield
41. Ted "Kid" Lewis
42. Alexis Arguello
43. Marco Antonio Barrera
44. Pernell Whitaker
45. Carlos Monzon
46. Roy Jones Jr.
47. Bernard Hopkins
48. Floyd Mayweather Jr.
49. Erik Morales
50. Mike Tyson

[ttwarrior1]

Ali is about 5th on my list all time, , you can't count what he did outside of the ring

Just too bad boxing sucks today in the heavyweight division

[ttwarrior1]

embedded

[ttwarrior1]

[WvGambler]

Not even close. Ali would've whipped Tyson's ass easily. Ali was a boxer. Tyson was a puncher. Lewis, or even Holyfield, would've given Ali much more trouble than Tyson would have. Remember the way both of those guys easily dismantled Tyson.

you sound like my dad.....same era I guess

[frostno98]

Tyson with Cus D Mato training him will fuk up anyone.

[sideloaded]

Ali's greatness comes from his cultural impact. He was literally the most famous person on the planet. He had good boxing skills but they're have been plenty of boxers with his skill or higher. None of them however had the total package like Ali. I would say the one thing that Ali had over any boxer alive was he was a tough SOB.

[jjgold]

Great fighter but of course not the best
His out of the ring character made him huge and unlike any other

[dww123]

A young Iron Mike woulda knocked Ali the fukk out!!!

Really? I can't believe there are people out there who still haven't figured out how grossly overrated Tyson was. The guys the "young Iron Mike" were fighting were absolute tomato cans. His contempories were Lewis and Holyfield and lost to both of them, badly. In fact, who did he ever beat the was noteworthy? A prime Ali wouldn't even have hired Tyson as a sparring partner.

[JohnGalt2341]

Bert Sugar is an idiot. Roy Jones was completely dominant for more than 12 straight years and he ranks him 88th? Granted Jones should have retired in 2003(or sooner) but in his prime he was as good as any fighter ever was.

As far as Ali goes... great fighter, great chin, great stamina. He's still overrated as a fighter. If he was a quiet guy that didn't speak English and he was judged only on his fighting ability there is no way he would be adored as much as he is. I do think he would have beat Tyson though and here's why... Tyson always did his best against fighters who were either afraid of him or trying not to lose instead of actually trying to win the fight. It was usually a combination of both. Tyson often struggled against mediocre fighters that weren't afraid of him. And GOOD fighters that weren't afraid of him would actually beat him. Ali would not be afraid of Tyson. After 6 rounds of Ali taking Tyson's best shots and avoiding the majority of them Ali would begin to take Tyson apart and probably make him look silly.

If you gave me Lennox Lewis in his prime at -110 against any Heavyweight in their prime I would take Lewis... even against Ali.

[DOMINATER]

as usual no one around here knows shit Rocky Marciano was the greatest of all time undefeated record to boot .

[InTheDrink]

Ali isn't the goat but he was the best heavyweight in the best era of heavyweights. All those guys norton Frazier foreman Holmes etc would destroy the current list of stiffs and commies running the division now and would appear to be among the best ever.

Not to mention that every heavyweight will be considered as better than lighter guys of the same caliber by the gen pub.

[ttwarrior1]

whats sad is i posted this on 7 gambling forums and they all had over 100 responses in less then 12 hours

Sad days at sbr, just not the same

[Harry N. Lloyd]

Ali was the greatest at one thing only......trash talking. Goaded his opponent, bragged endlessly. Set the ideals of sportsmanship back hundreds of years. Was clearly a crowd favorite and as a result had to do very little to win many of his fights. Would rope-a-dope for entire rounds and somehow the judges would award him points. Sugar Ray Leonard did the same thing later. Marvelous Marvin Hagler would take the fight to him but Ray would win because of his showmanship. Ali ushered in the era of the egotistical athlete. Further, he originally had one of the great names ever--Cassius Clay-- and went and changed it to Muhammed. Pul-leeze! That's why he was the most famous athlete in the world. There are close to 2 million muslims who supported him for that reason alone. He was better looking than Yasser Arafat, the second most famous Muslim in the world. Greatest boxer? No friggin' way. Greatest showman? Perhaps.

[will2survive]

Ali is so much more than a boxer. He's a world ambassador. The only mistake that he made was taking the money and fighting Holmes. This man wouldn't back down. Nobody mentions that he lost 3 years of his prime due to refusing to serve at Vietnam. When he fought Frazier he was rusty. How many times did Foreman knock down Frazier? Ali was brilliant when he fought big George. Muhammad Ali is the greatest of all time. No question.

Also, in his prime, Tyson would've hurt Ali but Ali could take a punch and his boxing I.Q would've aided in a victory over Iron Mike

[subs]

you have to be great in and out of the ring to be the greatest, and Ali was simply in a league of his own outside the ring.

+ he was man of principals, who loved his people, and best of all refused to be an accomplice to the slaughter of vietnamese people for no fukking reason.

he was a hero... the greatest ever sporting hero on the planet.

that is why he is the greatest.

[sickler]

Bert list

1. Sugar Ray Robinson
2. Henry Armstrong
3. Wille Pep
4. Joe Louis
5. Harry Greb
6. Benny Leonard
7. Muhammad Ali
8. Roberto Duran
9. Jack Dempsey
10. Jack Johnson
11. Mickey Walker
12. Tony Canzoneri
13. Gene Tunney
14. Rocky Marciano
15. Joe Gans
16. Sam Langford
17. Julio Cesar Chavez
18. Jimmy Wilde
19. Stanley Ketchel
20 Barney Ross
21, Jimmy McLarnin
22. Archie Moore
23. Marcel Cerdan
24. Ezzard Charles
25. Sugar Ray Leonard
26. Joe Walcott (The original)
27. Jake LaMotta
28. Eder Jofre
29. Emile Griffith
30. Terry McGovern
31. George Foreman
32. Johnny Dundee
33. Jose Napoles
34. Pascual Perez
35. Billy Conn
36. Ruben Olivares
37. Joe Frazier
38. Tommy Loughran
39. Sandy Saddler
40. Kid Chocolate
41. Abe Attell
42. Evander Holyfield
43. George Dixon
44. Maxie Rosenbloom
45. Larry Holmes
46. Ted "Kid" Lewis
47. Marvin Hagler
48. Pernell Whitaker
49. Carlos Zarate
50. Thomas Hearns
51. Battling Nelson
52. Beau Jack
53. Ricardo ;Lopez
54. John L. Sullivan
55. Carlos Monzon
56. Alexis Arguello
57. Carmen Basillio
58. Pete Herman
59. Charley Burley
60. Ike Williams
61. Kid Gavilan
62. Jack Britton
63. Dick Tiger
64. Pancho Villa
65. Panama Al Brown
66. Bob Fitszimmons
67. Philadelphia Jack O'Brien
68. Tiger Flowers
69. James J.Corbett
70. Tony Zale
71. Tommy Ryan
72. Georges Carpentier
73, Sonny Liston
74. "Kid" McCoy
75. Bob Foster
76. Freddie Welsh
77. Joe Jeanette
78. Jim Driscoll
79. Jersey Joe Walcott
80. Peter Jackson
81. Ad Wolgast
82. Jack Dempsey (The Nonpareil)
83. Manuel Ortiz
84. James J. Jeffries
85. Salvador Sanchez
86. Jimmy Barry
87. Carlos Ortiz
88. Roy Jones Jr.
89. Wilfredo Gomez
90. Aaron Pryor
91. Bernard Hopkins
92. Mike Gibbons
93. Jack Delaney
94. Johnny Kilbane
95. Willie Ritchie
96. Wilfredo Benitez
97. Packey McFarland
98. Rocky Graziano
99. Lew Jenkins
100. Mike Tyson

I don't see the point of having a top 100 with all weight classes included.

[rocky mattioli]

ali was "the greatest" because he represented the media`s p.o.v.(racial and anti-war activism etc) during a turbulent time in american history when any sort of social activism/anti-americanism was chi-chi.....

as a fighter,he was fast and durable...but took long portions of rounds off.....i can`t recall how many times i saw ali do nothing for 2.5 minutes of a round(clown or lay on the ropes) then throw a meaningless flurry and be awarded a round....


a good portion of the ali mystique was media hype,imo....he was lucky to fight during an era in which his main protagonists were a 5`10" 210 pound one dimensional guy like joe frazier and a very limited ken norton...

the george foreman fight was probably one of his biggest accomplishments....

i doubt he`d have been as highly thought of if a prime larry holmes or the klitschkos were around during the era...

[Grits n' Gravy]

whats sad is i posted this on 7 gambling forums and they all had over 100 responses in less then 12 hours

Sad days at sbr, just not the same

What's even sadder is you have enough time to post in 7 forums and respond all day.

Ali was a great fighter and a real person. Had adversity and overcame it. Didn't give up when most would've. Stood by his convictions. Had plenty of flaws in his personal life and never tried to hide them.

To a generation of people he was either what was wrong in America or an inspiration for following your dreams despite obstacles.

He'd be the equivalent of Mayor McCheese to you tubby. You have no problem calling yourself the greatest obese tennis player in the state, the best poker player here, the strongest man here etc.....yet a man who was the heavyweight champ of the world 3 times can't call himself the Greatest?

[muldoon]

I can only imagine how people in this forum would view Ali if he was around today...

Anti-war Muslim boxer