[yisman]

not talking about certain ones where the case is in dispute.

1)mp5070
2)TxAaron

[downsouth]

TxAaron was my favorite as he always talked like he was big shot.

[BiTeMe UsAdOj]

TxAaron was my favorite as he always talked like he was big shot.

Yeah, hard to be taken seriously when you're stiffing betpts.

TxAaron always worked hard to impress in his posts (his Vegas cabanas blah blah blah)... clown can't make good on betpts, ffs. Sure sign you're a 100% life loser if you're stiffing betpts.

I told the scumbag mp5070 to pay his debts when I saw him in poker... scumbag was mute, per usual.

Still say SBR could (easily) do so much more to weed the community of these stiffing jackasses.

BUT, you'd have to care first, so...... you know.

[JerseyLove]

YISMAN is a punk

[Optional]

Still say SBR could (easily) do so much more to weed the community of these stiffing jackasses.

BUT, you'd have to care first, so...... you know.

Despite knowing going in that SBR policy is to not get involved with betpoint loans and disputes, you still think it's not the lenders sole problem?

I don't believe you think that.

Lenders collect interest. It's their business and their decision to take the risk, for a profit.

[yisman]

forgot one.

3)JerseyLove

he stiffed me and others.

[downsouth]

Yeah, hard to be taken seriously when you're stiffing betpts.

TxAaron always worked hard to impress in his posts (his Vegas cabanas blah blah blah)... clown can't make good on betpts, ffs. Sure sign you're a 100% life loser if you're stiffing betpts.

I told the scumbag mp5070 to pay his debts when I saw him in poker... scumbag was mute, per usual.

Still say SBR could (easily) do so much more to weed the community of these stiffing jackasses.

BUT, you'd have to care first, so...... you know.

I hear what you're saying and of course wish more was done but its been made clear they will not do anything about it 1000s of times over the years. Even so much when people have loaned someone points and then the borrowers account was banned. Rather then return the points SBR just confiscates them.

I wonder why SBR themselves never got into loaning points. Unless they knew half the posters were stiff/deadbeats and didnt want to have to ban half the traffic.

[playersonly69]

Who does txaaron owe and how much?

[yisman]

He stiffed me. Over 2 years ago.

[yisman]

4)mrpooh

back when we were allowed to use runners for bets, he placed a bet which won and then refused to pay.

although checking his post history, he stopped posting in August of last year.

[JAKEPEAVY21]

I saw jeffdane in poker a few months ago

pretty sure he stiffed someone

How about that clown, Goat Milk?

[yisman]

Goat still owes stash

stash, check in and I'll send you some points.

PAULYPOKER eventually gave me some points (Goat Milk's excuse for stiffing was that PAULY owed him).

[BiTeMe UsAdOj]

Despite knowing going in that SBR policy is to not get involved with betpoint loans and disputes, you still think it's not the lenders sole problem?

I don't believe you think that.

Lenders collect interest. It's their business and their decision to take the risk, for a profit.

I've stated more than once some of the things I think regarding this:

Documented stiffs (not ones in dispute, but crystal clear evidence of a stiff job... verifiable... like TxAaron & mp5070 & snickerdoodles & studMLB, etc.) *should not* be allowed to participate in any SBR contests. No BTP, no poker promos, no contests of any kind... NOTHING, NADA, ZIPPO.

It's a bad look for SBR to allow these malevolent assholes to participate in contests when they're fukkin over other community members. Last night I'm sitting next to mp5070 @ the poker table. Why do I or anyone else have to deal w/this thief? He's a thieving scumbag... not disputable.

It's not hard to boot someone from participation (remove mp5070's poker access and remove him when he joins BTP, if he hasn't already). SBR just needs to care to; it's in SBR's best interests to act against verifiable thievery, as it would help give them the "benefit of the doubt" cachet when situations like BeTiSlAnDs arise. SBR could have used some of that benefit of the doubt in that particular situation... as they didn't seem to have much B.O.D. banked w/members.

Removing verifiable thieves from contests is easy and all it takes is a "want to"(and helps set a *culture* for SBR -- *zero tolerance on stealing*); this doesn't deeply involve SBR in any pts disputes b/c anyone that spends any time around here knows who the verifiable thieves are. Not difficult to discern. So.... no, sole problem? -- I think it's up to *both* SBR and its members to police the forum and protect the community from overt & verifiable stealing.

Also, SBR shouldn't confiscate the pts from banned thieves; as the pts aren't the thieves', but rather, they are the pts of other upstanding members and should be returned to them. If a biz owed SBR money and they were shut down for shady practices, would SBR still expect to be paid something when the biz's assets were liquidated? Uh... yeah they would.

EDIT: I just joined BTP and lo and behold... this confirmed THIEF is registered:
1

TxAaron

0-0-0

0.00 %

-

0.0

0.00

-

Ah yeah... let's hear how hard it is for SBR to ban confirmed stiffing thieves from contests, where SBR allows the thieves to freely steal more from upstanding community members.

Remember, if you do nothing... you tacitly condone the thievery. That's just the practical way it is......

[brainfreeze]

I understand why they don't get involved ... It's understandable, it's just not in their interest to be in people's business on here. It benefits them zero...and it takes time to take them off " a list " or put them on it & ban them from contest... This is why like ds said, it's solely on the lender, interest for risk...

It should be a much higher interest for someone just getting their feet wet, and as they are established borrowers, cut them slack .. The stiffs... I'd just do what yis is doing here, put them on a list... That way lenders can go over said list and make better decisions on who to loan to..

[BiTeMe UsAdOj]

Freezer, when BeTiSlAnDs shenanigans went down... very, very few gave SBR the benefit of the doubt and many totally believed (and still do) SBR was in cahoots with them.

If you establish a CULTURE of zero tolerance w/thievery, you build trust with your members, so... *wait for it*... THERE'S THE BENEFIT.

And lol at the "time" it would take --- I'm not a mod and *I KNOW* most all the verifiable stiffs 'round here (as do many others) and if I had access it'd take me all of 1 minute to remove a thief like TxAaron from BTP.

C'mon now....

[brainfreeze]

Freezer, when BeTiSlAnDs shenanigans went down... very, very few gave SBR the benefit of the doubt and many totally believed (and still do) SBR was in cahoots with them.

If you establish a CULTURE of zero tolerance w/thievery, you build trust with your members, so... *wait for it*... THERE'S THE BENEFIT.

And lol at the "time" it would take --- I'm not a mod and *I KNOW* most all the verifiable stiffs 'round here (as do many others) and if I had access it'd take me all of 1 minute to remove a thief like TxAaron from BTP.

C'mon now....

I'm saying to keep up with it bite, what if the guy comes back and does pay...someone has to keep track of all that, it's not sbr's problem here bite.. They weren't involved in anyone's loans, they don't collect anything, but you want them to pay someone to watch this...the site has been around for a while, I don't think they're worried about credibility .. I just don't think we can blame them for not taking some out of contest and all that... It is crappy that the loaners have to watch them win in a contest or play poker...but that just says a lot about that individuals character... Let them live, and hope they turn a corner somewhere ...

[BiTeMe UsAdOj]

Uh, Freezer... 'bout all anyone has to do to "keep up with it" is actually read the forum.

Ain't that difficult, pal.

Again, I'm not being paid and I KNOW most all the thieves... so do many others.

If a mod can't read the forum and keep up, well... not sure what I can tell ya.

And if you don't think SBR took a massive credibility hit on BI, well...........

[Optional]

I don't think any mod keeps up with all the loan stuff Bite. Couldn't pay me enough to even try.

If you want more SBR involvement, the only thing I can imagine they might do is ban the practice. Not pay someone to follow all the private transactions.

[BiTeMe UsAdOj]

I don't think any mod keeps up with all the loan stuff Bite. Couldn't pay me enough to even try.

If you want more SBR involvement, the only thing I can imagine they might do is ban the practice. Not pay someone to follow all the private transactions.

And what if someone VOLUNTEERED to track it for them... FOR FREE.

Then submit the verifiable evidence on the thieves to an SBR employee.

What would SBR's excuse be then?


(I could set up a tracking system *IF* SBR guaranteed me they'd follow through and BAN the thieves from BTP and all other contests/promos. Wouldn't cost them a cent; only a short time to review the evidence -- they couldn't do THAT?)

BTW, you reminded me of the nuns' logic when I was in school: a few mess up, PUNISH THE WHOLE CLASS! That was the Catholic School way... instead of thinking of practical solutions to punish the actual offenders, just take it away from EVERYONE. Uh, that's not the way to solve a problem. There's *always* a decent solution if you actually try to find one.

[Optional]

I don't get how SBR are 'punishing the class' by simply keeping out of it and letting us do what we want.

And personally I think it's a good policy. No solution needed when there is no problem.

Would you walk into a bar and give another customer some cash to bet with then go demanding it was the bar tender's responsibility to make it right if they stiffed you?

I don't agree with your idea that not doing that makes SBR look bad either. Think quite the opposite in fact.

[brainfreeze]

Uh, Freezer... 'bout all anyone has to do to "keep up with it" is actually read the forum.

Ain't that difficult, pal.

Again, I'm not being paid and I KNOW most all the thieves... so do many others.

If a mod can't read the forum and keep up, well... not sure what I can tell ya.

And if you don't think SBR took a massive credibility hit on BI, well...........

Shrugs... Idk bite, I understand both sides here... Maybe they can get a volunteer or something ...

I just read your idea about doing it for free, and just would need a employee approval .. It's a good suggestion, would hope they could think on something like it...

people that don't payback shouldn't get the same privileges ..I could agree, because these are privileges ..

but then again... I'd rather them do nothing ...than end loaning all together

[yisman]

there should be repercussions for abusing the point system

scamming other members of the site is abusing the system

[BiTeMe UsAdOj]

Was getting fukked in SBR poker room, just getting back to this:

I don't get how SBR are 'punishing the class' by simply keeping out of it and letting us do what we want.

The 'punishing the class' comment was *specific* to you saying this: "the only thing I can imagine they might do is ban the practice." Please don't move the goalposts and veer it to the "won't take any punitive action on stiffs" argument. Two different things.

And personally I think it's a good policy. No solution needed when there is no problem.

... yeah, NO PROBLEM.
Upstanding SBR'ers getting stiffed then having to compete w/proven thieves in contests. Really engenders a good feeling toward SBR when sitting next to one of these thieves at the poker table or seeing them in BTP. Good to know a proven thief gets the same bennys as a good SBR citizen. No difference.

Don't look now but some may disagree with your "no problem" assessment (and the consequence to SBR can manifest in subtle ways, i.e., some good members stop contributing to the forum... why should they?... there's no more benefit to being a good member than a thief. Some good members don't renew PRO, etc...)

Would you walk into a bar and give another customer some cash to bet with then go demanding it was the bar tender's responsibility to make it right if they stiffed you?

Ol apples & oranges. Let's make the analogy germane:

IF I had to pay the bar a fee every year to become a member of that bar, and IF as a member after my fee they issued me "bar cash" to redeem things in the bar as a member, then what I would expect is: IF another member stole from another member and can be proved... while I wouldn't expect the bartender to "make good" with more bar cash or merchandise, I would expect the proven thief to face a consequence, i.e., they'd be kicked out of the club membership or couldn't participate in any bar activities until the thief made good on what they stole. Understand? This isn't really complicated.

I don't agree with your idea that not doing that makes SBR look bad either. Think quite the opposite in fact.

lol...OK

If I had any imput into SBR, I'd make peeps that stole from other members accountable... but hey, that's just me. I even offered up a plan that wouldn't cost SBR anything so that could easily be accomplished.

BUT, I know I'm wasting my time here even trying to offer up a solution to members that have been ripped off by proven thieves (and for the overall betterment of the community) so....................

[ArunSh]

Great posts Bitemeusadoj - have to agree with you. Obviously I'm biased being someone who has been stiffed by multiple people before, but as you have basically said this really isn't about making me or anyone else "whole", it's about at least somewhat punishing those who flat out stole from other people. Your offer to help out in this regard is very appreciated - while I very much doubt anything will come of it, one can hope! I obviously would love to be paid back what has been stolen from me over the years, but to me it's a much bigger kick in the teeth when I see someone who stiffed me playing poker, BTP, etc.: an outright thief being allowed to profit at others' (good customers) expense.

Optional: While I understand what you say how SBR has made it very clear that they will not get involved in such disputes and have no obligation from a business standpoint to do anything, what about moral/ethical obligations? And I'm afraid I have to agree with Biteme that that analogy you gave is ridiculous. Implying that this is even remotely the same thing as someone going into a bar, giving someone else $, then expecting the bar to make them whole when they get stiffed is absurd. No one is asking SBR to repay the points that others have stolen/stiffed on, we simply would like it if those who have unequivocally done that be barred from doing any further "business" on here. Since you are all about making analogies, let me give you one yourself: if someone went into a bar (or any business) and started stealing from other customers there (almost certainly adversely affecting future business), what reputable company would allow such a patron to continue to be a patron?

[Optional]

I get what you mean by punishing the class now Bite. But still think you are pointing the finger the wrong way. SBR doesn't want to be involved in personal loans or bets etc at all. You are making the call for changes. I was just giving an opinion on the only change I can imagine they would make. If you want to keep pushing for SBR oversight and that happens... isn't it actually YOU who have punished the entire forum by insisting SBR step in and make rulings about your personal business?

Act like an American for gawds sake. Personal responsibility, freedom of choice and if you sell something for a profit, then you chose to take on the risk.. in return for the profit you choose to ask for.

If it's too risky, or you do not want to take personal responsibility for your choice, then dont make a loan. As I said, there is no problem here.




(I don't mean to sound callous btw. Yisman for one is a good guy who hardly makes a peep considering how often he gets ripped off. It sucks that scumbags can get away with stiffing and just hang around afterward, but it it's better for us all if SBR just keeps out of it. The ensuing mess and arguments and forum police it would create just aint worth it to anyone)

[BiTeMe UsAdOj]

Great posts Bitemeusadoj - have to agree with you. Obviously I'm biased being someone who has been stiffed by multiple people before, but as you have basically said this really isn't about making me or anyone else "whole", it's about at least somewhat punishing those who flat out stole from other people. Your offer to help out in this regard is very appreciated - while I very much doubt anything will come of it, one can hope! I obviously would love to be paid back what has been stolen from me over the years, but to me it's a much bigger kick in the teeth when I see someone who stiffed me playing poker, BTP, etc.: an outright thief being allowed to profit at others' (good customers) expense.

Optional: While I understand what you say how SBR has made it very clear that they will not get involved in such disputes and have no obligation from a business standpoint to do anything, what about moral/ethical obligations? And I'm afraid I have to agree with Biteme that that analogy you gave is ridiculous. Implying that this is even remotely the same thing as someone going into a bar, giving someone else $, then expecting the bar to make them whole when they get stiffed is absurd. No one is asking SBR to repay the points that others have stolen/stiffed on, we simply would like it if those who have unequivocally done that be barred from doing any further "business" on here. Since you are all about making analogies, let me give you one yourself: if someone went into a bar (or any business) and started stealing from other customers there (almost certainly adversely affecting future business), what reputable company would allow such a patron to continue to be a patron?

^^ Perfectly encapsulates the HEART OF THE MATTER... kudos.

Few things burn my ass more 'round here than seeing scammers/thieves sitting across from me @ the poker table or seeing their name in contests like BTP. Thieves like mp5070 & TxAaron and all the other thieving assholes are TAKERS and contribute *nothing* to the forum community. Silly me, I try to be a contributor to any group/community I'm a part of... but who's the sucker here? Try to contribute w/ entertaining posts, being helpful with info/pts gifts, etc... pffft... means *nothing*'round here. Why waste time trying to contribute and being a "good guy" when the thieving assholes don't receive any consequence and get absolutely everything that a "play-by-the-rules contributor" gets?

Unfortunately... Bad Guys WIN.

[BiTeMe UsAdOj]

Ain't rocket science, Opti.

The clear cut scammers/thieves are easy to discern; you're muddying the waters and trying to inject a specious micromanaging aspect into the argument where no one is suggesting any kind of micromanaging, whatsoever.

TxAaron stiffed... *wait for it*... 2 FUKKIN YEARS AGO and has made zero effort in all this time to make amends for his thievery. In fact, yis tells me he doesn't even deny it, admits his stiffing.

mp freerolled yis on the... *wait for it*... YEARS AGO Miami Heat final. Er... safe to say he doesn't plan on making good on his thievery, either.

... ah yeah, these type cases would be so hard and time consuming to figure out.


p.s. -- nice touch, btw, trying to speciously inject how *I* would be the punisher to forum members by trying to hold clear-cut-no-doubt-about-it thieves accountable for stealing.

[Optional]

Not just trying to be argumentative... but personally I totally reject any argument saying SBR has some sort of moral duty to manage betpoints loan enforcement.

I genuinely don't get how you guys can actually think this.


The bad guys only get away with ANYTHING because you choose to enable them to. SBR has not suggested it or officially endorsed it and if they are smart they will keep the current policy of staying right out of the shitfight. No matter what you do in this regard it will cause drama and ill feeling. Much better to just leave it casual, unofficial and totally between the parties choosing to do it.

[Optional]

Ain't rocket science, Opti.

The clear cut scammers/thieves are easy to discern; you're muddying the waters and trying to inject a specious micromanaging aspect into the argument where no one is suggesting any kind of micromanaging, whatsoever.

TxAaron stiffed... *wait for it*... 2 FUKKIN YEARS AGO and has made zero effort in all this time to make amends for his thievery. In fact, yis tells me he doesn't even deny it, admits his stiffing.

mp freerolled yis on the... *wait for it*... YEARS AGO Miami Heat final. Er... safe to say he doesn't plan on making good on his thievery, either.

... ah yeah, these type cases would be so hard and time consuming to figure out.


p.s. -- nice touch, btw, trying to speciously inject how *I* would be the punisher to forum members by trying to hold clear-cut-no-doubt-about-it thieves accountable for stealing.

Nice touch in what way?

A good point that is 100% true?

Seriously, are you having a go at me for presenting too good an argument or are you seriously suggesting what I said is untrue or unfair in any way? YOU bought up the personal sleight that SBR was punishing the class... can't you see the point of view that SBR is doing nothing, nought, zero, and it is the people calling for their involvement that are risking punishing the class?

Be careful what you ask for basically.

[BiTeMe UsAdOj]

Nice touch in what way?

A good point that is 100% true?

... good one.

Seriously, are you having a go at me for presenting too good an argument

Ah yeah... that's it.

or are you seriously suggesting what I said is untrue or unfair in any way? YOU bought up the personal sleight that SBR was punishing the class

Ah, wrong... and anyone following along and understanding can see and interpret things correctly: I merely *analogized* what YOU introduced into the equation (this, your words: ""the only thing I can imagine they might do is ban the practice."). Prior, I was strictly commenting on what to do with proven thieves. If you don't introduce the above comment, I don't make the analogy to frame what YOU said. Understand?

And btw... how is commenting about a company (SBR) making a "personal sleight"?

Are you such a big bad uber important mod now that you take comments about SBR personally?

... can't you see the point of view that SBR is doing nothing, nought, zero, and it is the people calling for their involvement that are risking punishing the class?

Be careful what you ask for basically.

As specifically described by me and endorsed by others (banning overt, proven thieves from contests), there is ZERO risk of punishing the whole class; on the contrary, it specifically targets the specific egregious crooks, only.

You're the guy that keeps introducing some sort of Orwellian micromanaging into this discussion... nobody else.

Anyway...... I'm pretty much done wasting time on the topic: I offered up my time, effort and services FREE OF CHARGE to do something to hold proven thieves accountable for stealing from other members, and that's about the best I can feasibly do. Like I said from jump in my 1st post in this thread, SBR has to actually care about the verifiable thievery, which they don't, so....... nothing else to really say.

[BiTeMe UsAdOj]

but personally I totally reject any argument saying SBR has some sort of moral duty to manage betpoints loan enforcement.

As an aside, next time I see a couple scumbags scamming SBR in the poker room/wherever, I'll just keep quiet and won't inform SBR of it (like I've done in the past... silly me, I didn't want SBR scammed... felt kinda a moral obligation as a member of SBR to report the scamming b/c I know in long run scamming hurts SBR & ALL MEMBERS... hey, my bad).

Scammers if I know you're trying to rip off SBR... ALL'S GOOD NOW!... I just needed to know the rules... my bad all along.

[Fidel_CashFlow]

strangely enough , I agree with both sides I guess
Tell ya what though, its pretty damn deflating when someone stiffs ya
Kinda making me not want to help out others who are in a jam ....

[ArunSh]

Not just trying to be argumentative... but personally I totally reject any argument saying SBR has some sort of moral duty to manage betpoints loan enforcement.

I genuinely don't get how you guys can actually think this.


The bad guys only get away with ANYTHING because you choose to enable them to. SBR has not suggested it or officially endorsed it and if they are smart they will keep the current policy of staying right out of the shitfight. No matter what you do in this regard it will cause drama and ill feeling. Much better to just leave it casual, unofficial and totally between the parties choosing to do it.

I guess we'll have to agree to disagree on this one Optional because I entirely disagree with you. That said, this is clearly very much a matter of opinion, and you/SBR are obviously entitled to yours as I am to mine.

Not to make extreme analogies but to say that we choose to "enable" them, that is akin to saying that a woman who dresses provactively and ends up getting raped or a person who accidentally leaves their house unlocked and gets robbed as a result "enabled" the crime in question. Even if you somehow want to place some of the blame on the victim, I ask you: what court in any country would let the perpetrator off scot free on the basis that the victim "enabled" the crime in question with their actions? Another analogy: if you take your car in to get serviced and the car shop steals it, did the victim "enable" the crime in question by giving them the keys and therefore the car shop should get off without punishment? Isn't that a little ridiculous?

Anyway as I said, we'll have to agree to disagree. Just saddens me frankly that SBR takes such a hard line against people who are discovered to be scamming them (which I entirely agree with don't get me wrong) but can so easily turn a blind eye to people who are scamming their good/loyal customers, really comes off as entirely self-interested.

All that said, I really enjoy everything SBR does do with their promotions and stuff - I wouldn't have been a member here for almost ten years if I didn't! So keep up the good work, I intend to be a member here for a long time even if there will always be things/policies that I disagree with

[BiTeMe UsAdOj]

strangely enough , I agree with both sides I guess

When this is the case, there is *always* a compromise to be found; I think what I'm saying about OVERT, PROVEN, VERIFIABLE scammers strikes the perfect balance/compromise... as nobody but Opti was talking about intense micromanaging of the situation.

Tell ya what though, its pretty damn deflating when someone stiffs ya
Kinda making me not want to help out others who are in a jam ....

[SharpAngles]

biter I love ya pal but opti's right

I've lost thousands of dollars loaning buyins to would be stiffs in casinos, pool halls and poker rooms over the years and couldn't imagine asking a floorman or manager to turn away the creep because he stiffed me Not gonna happen pal.

The current don't ask don't tell attitude of management is appropriate no matter how personally irritating seeing the stiff around may be.