[stevenash]

why are all you talking about stats, its not always about stats

Analytics begin with the numbers.
It's not always about the stats, I'm on record as saying that dozens of times, but you have to start someplace, everything in life is math driven, stats are the logical place to start.

OK, let's forget about the math for one second, I've seen both players play pretty much their entire careers.
Just my going on the eye test alone, they're very similar.

I've seen Jeter play is whole career, some say he was just a mediocre defensive shortstop. which he was not.
He was a very good defensive shortstop, granted his range wasn't as vast as say Ozzie's was, but Jeter made virtually every play, and then some.

Plus Jeter had what metrics can't put a value on, baseball smarts.
He knew where to position himself at all times for instance, etc etc. you know, the intangibles.

You see, it's not always about the stats/math with me.

[stevenash]

A lot of people don't know this butt Don Mattingly isn't in the hall of Fame because he keeps a very dirty anus and everyone can smell him.

Thanks for that contribution to this topic.

[stevek173]

You're quite welcome..

For the record I've never smelt him, just hear say.

[TommieGunshot]

I've seen Jeter play is whole career, some say he was just a mediocre defensive shortstop. which he was not.
He was a very good defensive shortstop, granted his range wasn't as vast as say Ozzie's was, but Jeter made virtually every play, and then some.

This is the exact reason why some stats are needed to be used. One of the most important parts of defense is where the fielder is before the ball is even pitched. A shortstop with a weak arm will have to play a few steps in and someone watching them will see them diving after balls much more often. Sometimes those diving stops will turn into outs and look amazing, sometimes they will go for hits when they shouldn't. A shortstop with a stronger arm can play further back and won't be diving around, instead making plays that look routine when the same grounder would have been a hit with a different shortstop. That difference between Ripken and Jeter was distorted on TV, but shows up clearly in their stats.

[ChuckyTheGoat]

Warrior, why would you say that about STats? I know you're smarter than that.

Baseball is one of the best sports for Stats, b/c of so many individual matchups.

Some more fodder on the 1b defense, Matt vs Hern.

*Range Factor per 9IP: Matt 9.71, Hern 10.20.
...I admit that I don't know what this formula is, other than it means Hernandez got to more balls.

*Assists per game: Matt .68, Hern .84.
...I always envision Mattingly as being in a good crouched ready position. But Hernandez was better on the AA range. Watching the games/highlights, Hernandez read the play so well. Keith was making diving plays. His arm was good, and he was great on leading the pitcher to the bag for the 3-1 putout.

[teecee]

Seven time All Star
Four time Gold Glove
Three time Silver Slugger

Year				G	PA	AB	R	H	2B	3B	HR	RBI	SB	CS	BB	SO	BA	OBP	SLG	OPS	OPS+
1				48	177	156	28	39	9	1	8	26	4	0	20	53	0.25	0.333	0.474	0.808	117
2				145	587	514	82	147	43	1	20	82	18	3	60	130	0.286	0.359	0.49	0.85	126
3				160	710	602	103	182	36	3	36	125	15	7	99	145	0.302	0.401	0.551	0.952	160
4				109	479	406	75	122	39	1	19	69	9	3	64	110	0.3	0.396	0.542	0.938	158
5				159	695	567	103	182	38	2	33	110	21	5	118	151	0.321	0.435	0.57	1.005	168
6				158	705	579	106	172	33	3	24	95	32	5	110	150	0.297	0.411	0.489	0.899	133
7				155	665	558	117	166	34	3	36	120	18	5	94	147	0.297	0.404	0.563	0.966	142
8				158	690	593	95	172	35	5	33	83	7	4	90	173	0.29	0.389	0.533	0.922	142
9				161	682	597	97	155	25	1	34	97	3	1	78	166	0.26	0.346	0.476	0.821	115
10				58	231	191	31	58	13	0	6	21	1	0	37	43	0.304	0.417	0.466	0.883	145
11				158	679	603	102	177	36	2	31	99	12	0	67	136	0.294	0.365	0.514	0.879	141
12				100	435	379	73	125	28	0	26	82	5	0	51	93	0.33	0.411	0.609	1.021	189
12 Yrs				1569	6735	5745	1012	1697	369	22	306	1009	145	33	888	1497	0.295	0.391	0.527	0.918	144

W/o looking at rest of thread, I'm saying Paul Goldschmidt and no, I don't think he'll get in. HOF numbers are out of reach for him. He's good, though.

[teecee]

A lot of the HoF is political.
Schilling isn't in because he's a kook, Hernandez because there are too many skeletons in his closet, and the power numbers are soft for a !B, if you must put Keith in then you must put Mattingly in.

Trammell is in, why not Whitaker, and before answering, take a closer look at Lou's numbers, all of them, speed and defensive.
Palmeiro because he owned up to steroids.
We all know why Rose, A-Rod, Clemens, Mac, Sosa, and Bonds aren't in.

Yeah, we all know why Mac, Sosa and Bonds aren't in. Baseball and the writers used them as scapegoats.

[stevenash]

Yeah, we all know why Mac, Sosa and Bonds aren't in. Baseball and the writers used them as scapegoats.

Pretty much.
Bonds didn't need it, there's a lot of grey area with Mac, creatine is NOT banned in MLB, but he was ostracized for using it.
Sosa had more than steroid allegations in his 'closet', like the corked bat incident. Palmeiro fessed up to using steroids.

Cano was busted for using steroids while batting .220. Why bother, anybody can hit .220 without help.
Davis (Baltimore) was busted for using Adderall, (I'm on it 40 ** a day) it's great for focus, but it's banned in MLB, script or no script.

Andy Pettitte got off because he was using steroids while healing from an injury, he was not using it as a performance enhancer, also Pettitte produced a doctors notice from an MLB approved MD, as to what he was taking and why...

Clemens, I'm not sure it was proven, but come on now, please, I don't need evidence beyond a shadow of a doubt he was juicing.
Plus, he like Bonds, did not need it.

[stevek173]

When asked about his perpetually unwashed, dirty anus Mattingly replied "a man should smell like a man"

[pologq]

Pretty much.
Bonds didn't need it, there's a lot of grey area with Mac, creatine is NOT banned in MLB, but he was ostracized for using it.
Sosa had more than steroid allegations in his 'closet', like the corked bat incident. Palmeiro fessed up to using steroids.

Cano was busted for using steroids while batting .220. Why bother, anybody can hit .220 without help.
Davis (Baltimore) was busted for using Adderall, (I'm on it 40 ** a day) it's great for focus, but it's banned in MLB, script or no script.

Andy Pettitte got off because he was using steroids while healing from an injury, he was not using it as a performance enhancer, also Pettitte produced a doctors notice from an MLB approved MD, as to what he was taking and why...

Clemens, I'm not sure it was proven, but come on now, please, I don't need evidence beyond a shadow of a doubt he was juicing.
Plus, he like Bonds, did not need it.

with clemens i think they have a needle with his DNA and testimony. not sure if it was ever "proven".

i could care less what clemens or bonds did honestly but that is me.

as for goldschmidt, an MVP and reaching 400 homeruns in 3 good years would help a lot.

[d2bets]

W/o looking at rest of thread, I'm saying Paul Goldschmidt and no, I don't think he'll get in. HOF numbers are out of reach for him. He's good, though.

I think he eventually gets there, because it looks like he could very well have another 2-3 years as a top player and then a few more after that.

[TheGoldenGoose]

No. Numbers and longevity just not there.

[SBR_Guest_Pro]

Debateable