[irish1]

How in the hell do you not put Vlad Guerrero in on the 1st ballot? A career .318 hitter who blasted well over 400 HR's and drove in 100 plus runs ten times in his career. Did I mention the rocket he had for an arm. Please! Mike Mussina another one, won 270 games and was 120 over .500. He struckout over 2800. Could've have easily stuck around 2 or 3 more years for 300 wins and 3000 K's but choose not to. Those are what you call first ballot hall of famers. No crime dog again? I can't even take the HOF serious anymore. To many people left out or jerked around. Schilling another example, list is to long of players left out.

[irish1]

Juan Gonalez who played most of his time in Texas is a hall of famer.

1991	21	TEX	AL	142	595	545	78	144	34	1	27	102	4	4	42	118	.264	.321	.479	.800	121	261	10	5	0	3	7	*87/9D
1992	22	TEX	AL	155	632	584	77	152	24	2	43	109	0	1	35	143	.260	.304	.529	.833	133	309	16	5	0	8	1	*87/D9	MVP-16,SS
1993 ★	23	TEX	AL	140	587	536	105	166	33	1	46	118	4	1	37	99	.310	.368	.632	1.000	169	339	12	13	0	1	7	*7D	AS,MVP-4,SS
1994	24	TEX	AL	107	463	422	57	116	18	4	19	85	6	4	30	66	.275	.330	.472	.802	105	199	18	7	0	4	10	*7
1995	25	TEX	AL	90	374	352	57	104	20	2	27	82	0	0	17	66	.295	.324	.594	.917	130	209	15	0	0	5	3	D/7
1996	26	TEX	AL	134	592	541	89	170	33	2	47	144	2	0	45	82	.314	.368	.643	1.011	145	348	10	3	0	3	12	9D	MVP-1,SS
1997	27	TEX	AL	133	579	533	87	158	24	3	42	131	0	0	33	107	.296	.335	.589	.924	131	314	12	3	0	10	7	D9	MVP-9,SS
1998 ★	28	TEX	AL	154	669	606	110	193	50	2	45	157	2	1	46	126	.318	.366	.630	.997	149	382	20	6	0	11	9	*9D	AS,MVP-1,SS
1999	29	TEX	AL	144	629	562	114	183	36	1	39	128	3	3	51	105	.326	.378	.601	.980	141	338	10	4	0	12	7	*9D

look at those numbers and tell me he is not a hall of famer. Those are his best years but career average in .295 with over 400HR'S and plenty of RBI's. Please, this system 1st, 2nd, and 3rd ballot is bullshitt. Again after 5 years out of the game put them in or don't. Just look at the numbers and they tell the story. This system is broke. 45 HR's and 157 RBI's, 42 n 131, 47 n 144 and 46 n 118 are you kidding me?

[JAKEPEAVY21]

agree on Guerrero

Mussina probably gets in eventually but was never dominant IMO

Gonzalez will never get in...he was juiced to the gills and played in a hitter's paradise in Arlington

[irish1]

Joe Carter is another victim of the system. Definite hall of famer. Just go by the numbers.

Team	LG	G	AB	R	H	TB	2B	3B	HR	RBI	BB

Year	Team	LG	G	AB	R	H	TB	2B	3B	HR	RBI	BB	IBB	SO	SB	CS	AVG	OBP	SLG	OPS	GO/AO
1983	CHC	NL	23	51	6	9	12	1	1	0	1	0	0	21	1	0	.176	.176	.235	.412	-
1984	CLE	AL	66	244	32	67	114	6	1	13	41	11	0	48	2	4	.275	.307	.467	.775	-
1985	CLE	AL	143	489	64	128	200	27	0	15	59	25	2	74	24	6	.262	.298	.409	.707	-
1986	CLE	AL	162	663	108	200	341	36	9	29	121	32	3	95	29	7	.302	.335	.514	.849	-
1987	CLE	AL	149	588	83	155	282	27	2	32	106	27	6	105	31	6	.264	.304	.480	.784	-
1988	CLE	AL	157	621	85	168	297	36	6	27	98	35	6	82	27	5	.271	.314	.478	.792	-
1989	CLE	AL	162	651	84	158	303	32	4	35	105	39	8	112	13	5	.243	.292	.465	.757	-
1990	SD	NL	162	634	79	147	248	27	1	24	115	48	18	93	22	6	.232	.290	.391	.681	-
1991	TOR	AL	162	638	89	174	321	42	3	33	108	49	12	112	20	9	.273	.330	.503	.833	-
1992	TOR	AL	158	622	97	164	310	30	7	34	119	36	4	109	12	5	.264	.309	.498	.808	-
1993	TOR	AL	155	603	92	153	295	33	5	33	121	47	5	113	8	3	.254	.312	.489	.802	-
1994	TOR	AL	111	435	70	118	228	25	2	27	103	33	6	64	11	0	.271	.317	.524	.841	-
1995	TOR	AL	139	558	70	141	239	23	0	25	76	37	5	87	12	1	.253	.300	.428	.728	-
1996	TOR	AL	157	625	84	158	297	35	7	30	107	44	2	106	7	6	.253	.306	.475	.782	-
1997	TOR	AL	157	612	76	143	244	30	4	21	102	40	5	105	8	2	.234	.284	.399	.683	-
1998	BAL	AL	85	283	36	70	120	15	1	11	34	18	4	48	3	1	.247	.297	.424	.721
1998	SF	NL	41	105	15	31	59	7	0	7	29	6	0	13	1	0	.295	.322	.562	.884
1998 [-]	2 teams	-	126	388	51	101	179	22	1	18	63	24	4	61	4	1	.260	.304	.461	.765	-
MLB Career	-		2189	8422	1170	2184	3910	432	53	396	1445	527	86	1387	231	66	.259	.306	.464	.771

[irish1]

McGriff is just another player who they are jerking around. This system is terrible. Are you telling me Bagwell goes in before McGriff? That is a joke. look at McGriff's numbers!

Year	Age	Tm	Lg	G	PA	AB	R	H	2B	3B	HR	RBI	SB	CS	BB	SO	BA	OBP	SLG	OPS	OPS+	TB	GDP	HBP	SH	SF	IBB	Pos	Awards
1986	22	TOR	AL	3	5	5	1	1	0	0	0	0	0	0	0	2	.200	.200	.200	.400	8	1	0	0	0	0	0	/D3
1987	23	TOR	AL	107	356	295	58	73	16	0	20	43	3	2	60	104	.247	.376	.505	.881	130	149	3	1	0	0	4	D3
1988	24	TOR	AL	154	623	536	100	151	35	4	34	82	6	1	79	149	.282	.376	.552	.928	157	296	15	4	0	4	3	*3	MVP-17
1989	25	TOR	AL	161	680	551	98	148	27	3	36	92	7	4	119	132	.269	.399	.525	.924	165	289	14	4	1	5	12	*3/D	MVP-6,SS
1990	26	TOR	AL	153	658	557	91	167	21	1	35	88	5	3	94	108	.300	.400	.530	.930	153	295	7	2	1	4	12	*3/D	MVP-10
1991	27	SDP	NL	153	642	528	84	147	19	1	31	106	4	1	105	135	.278	.396	.494	.890	147	261	14	2	0	7	26	*3	MVP-10
1992 ★	28	SDP	NL	152	632	531	79	152	30	4	35	104	8	6	96	108	.286	.394	.556	.950	165	295	14	1	0	4	23	*3	AS,MVP-6,SS
1993	29	TOT	NL	151	640	557	111	162	29	2	37	101	5	3	76	106	.291	.375	.549	.924	144	306	14	2	0	5	6	*3	MVP-4,SS
1993	29	SDP	NL	83	349	302	52	83	11	1	18	46	4	3	42	55	.275	.361	.497	.858	127	150	9	1	0	4	4	3
1993	29	ATL	NL	68	291	255	59	79	18	1	19	55	1	0	34	51	.310	.392	.612	1.004	165	156	5	1	0	1	2	3
1994 ★	30	ATL	NL	113	478	424	81	135	25	1	34	94	7	3	50	76	.318	.389	.623	1.012	157	264	8	1	0	3	8	*3	AS,MVP-8
1995 ★	31	ATL	NL	144	604	528	85	148	27	1	27	93	3	6	65	99	.280	.361	.489	.850	119	258	19	5	0	6	6	*3	AS,MVP-20
1996 ★	32	ATL	NL	159	691	617	81	182	37	1	28	107	7	3	68	116	.295	.365	.494	.859	120	305	20	2	0	4	12	*3	AS
1997	33	ATL	NL	152	641	564	77	156	25	1	22	97	5	0	68	112	.277	.356	.441	.797	106	249	22	4	0	5	4	*3
1998	34	TBD	AL	151	649	564	73	160	33	0	19	81	7	2	79	118	.284	.371	.443	.815	111	250	14	2	0	4	9	*3D
1999	35	TBD	AL	144	620	529	75	164	30	1	32	104	1	0	86	107	.310	.405	.552	.957	142	292	12	1	0	4	11	*3D
2000 ★	36	TBD	AL	158	664	566	82	157	18	0	27	106	2	0	91	120	.277	.373	.452	.826	110	256	16	0	0	7	10	*3D	AS
2001	37	TOT	MLB	146	586	513	67	157	25	2	31	102	1	2	66	106	.306	.386	.544	.930	144	279	13	3	0	4	13	*3D
2001	37	TBD	AL	97	385	343	40	109	18	0	19	61	1	1	40	69	.318	.387	.536	.923	144	184	7	0	0	2	9	3D
2001	37	CHC	NL	49	201	170	27	48	7	2	12	41	0	1	26	37	.282	.383	.559	.942	145	95	6	3	0	2	4	3
2002	38	CHC	NL	146	595	523	67	143	27	2	30	103	1	2	63	99	.273	.353	.505	.858	125	264	13	4	0	5	6	*3/D
2003	39	LAD	NL	86	329	297	32	74	14	0	13	40	0	0	31	66	.249	.322	.428	.750	99	127	7	1	0	0	4	3
2004	40	TBD	AL	27	81	72	7	13	3	0	2	7	0	0	9	19	.181	.272	.306	.577	53	22	1	0	0	0	2	D/3
19 Yrs				2460	10174	8757	1349	2490	441	24	493	1550	72	38	1305	1882	.284	.377	.509	.886	134	4458	226	39	2	71	171
162 Game Avg.				162	670	577	89	164	29	2	32	102	5	3	86	124	.284	.377	.509	.886	134	294	15	3	0	5	11

Team	LG	G	AB	R	H	TB	2B	3B	HR	RBI	BB	I

[irish1]

Juan Gonzalez, Carter and McGriff one of many who the hall of fame is not putting in.

[irish1]

agree on Guerrero

Mussina probably gets in eventually but was never dominant IMO

Gonzalez will never get in...he was juiced to the gills and played in a hitter's paradise in Arlington

270 wins, 2800 K's? His 162 game average for a career is better than Steve Carlton's. You know if he wanted to hang around like Carlton and Seaver, he would easily be a 300 game winner and 3000 strikeout club member. He choose to go out on top of his game instead and won 20 in his last year. 270 says he dominated somebody. I may be wrong about Schilling 216 might not be enough even with 3000 K's. Mussina definite HOF in my eyes.

[stevenash]

Mussina was my favorite pitcher, he pitched in the hardest hitting division his whole career, and all he did was get a bunch of cheating steroid abusing hitters out for almost two decades.

Moose should be in the Hall already for the love of God.

[JAKEPEAVY21]

agree that McGriff should get a lot more love.

How about Sheffield? He gets no love either.

[irish1]

agree that McGriff should get a lot more love.

How about Sheffield? He gets no love either.

Gary Sheffield was another big steroid user but his mouth is what keeps him out of the Hall probably for good. He'll be the only 500 plus HR guy not to get in. Check out his interview with HBO years ago while on the Ynakees.
Sheffield calls out Torre, Jeter, Bonds in HBO interview

Jul 15, 2007

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Gary Sheffield has strong words about New York Yankees manager Joe Torre, former Yankees teammate Derek Jeter, San Francisco slugger Barry Bonds and steroids in an interview with HBO's "Real Sports" that will air Tuesday.
Sheffield says Torre treats black players differently from white players and says Jeter, who is from a mixed-race marriage, "ain't all the way black," during the interview with Andrea Kremer, as reported by Newsday.
As for Bonds, Sheffield says "if I took what Barry Bonds took, why don't I look like him?" He also says that he never took steroids because "the bottom line is steroids is something you stick in your butt -- period."

He added that he would be willing to talk to baseball's steroids investigator, former Senator George Mitchell. "I don't feel like it's all that much of a threat to me," he said.
A copy of the interview was made available to Newsday, the newspaper reported.
Sheffield, who was traded to the Detroit Tigers during the offseason, claimed that black and white players in the Yankees clubhouse were treated differently, specifically how players Tony Womack and Kenny Lofton were handled by Torre. In the interview with HBO, Sheffield says the black players on the Yankees' roster would be "called out" in the clubhouse by Torre, while the white players would be called into Torre's office to discuss matters.
"They weren't treated like everybody else. I got called out in a couple of meetings that I thought were unfair," Sheffield told Kremer.
Sheffield later added: "He had a message to get across to the whole team, so he used me to get the message across." Sheffield said Torre didn't use the same method with white players.
"No ... I'd see a lot of white players get called in the office and treated like a man. That's the difference."

When asked Saturday to respond to Sheffield's comments, Lofton said: "All I can say is, Sheffield knows what he's talking about. That's all I'm going to say," Lofton told the AP in the Texas Rangers' dugout just before the team took batting practice.
Sheffield said he doesn't consider Torre a racist. "No. I think it's the way they do things around there," he said. "Since I was there I just saw that they run their ship different."
At that point, Kremer says to Sheffield that the Yankees most high-profile player is black. "Who?" Sheffield says.
Told Jeter, Sheffield says: "Derek Jeter is black and white."
Later, he said there was no real significance to Jeter's bi-racial heritage, but added: "Derek Jeter used to come to me and try to tell you what Joe Torre is all about, he's a good man, he's this, he's that, but like I tell Derek Jeter, that's you. It's one thing that they treat you a certain way; you don't feel what other people feel."
Torre, asked about Sheffield's comments prior to Friday night's game in Tampa Bay, said: "I don't even want to answer those kinds of questions. I'm more comfortable not answering."
In the visiting clubhouse at Safeco Field on Friday, Sheffield stood behind what he said -- that Torre is not a racist -- but also tried to clarify some statements. In the piece, when it was mentioned that the Yankees' most prominent player -- Derek Jeter -- is black, Sheffield quickly clarified that Jeter is "black and white."
When asked the significance of that, Sheffield said, "It's
really no significance. It's just you ain't all the way black."
On Friday, Sheffield said he and the Yankees shortstop were best friends on the team, and that Sheffield's son is also of mixed race.
"They're trying to make it a problem with him, when my son is
the same. I'd say the same thing about my son," Sheffield said. "No one knows he's black until they look at the back of his jersey and see 'Sheffield.' "
Jeter declined comment.
As for Bonds, a former workout partner and friend of Sheffield's, the Tigers' outfielder says Bonds scoffed at him when he was using vitamins. Sheffield says he then got substances from BALCO, claiming not to know they were steroids.
Sheffield allegedly told a grand jury that he used steroid cream on his legs and "clear" under his tongue, but didn't know they were steroids.
He said his relationship with Bonds deteriorated because of a lack of trust.


"I trusted this man, he allowed me to stay in his house," Sheffield says. "I started seeing the control factor. I started seeing, wait a minute, you aren't going to tell me what to do."
On Friday, Sheffield said he doesn't speak with Bonds.
"We don't have no communication," Sheffield said. "I love and respect Barry to this day. I had a problem with him at that time, but I moved on and forgave."
Sheffield reportedly began the interview by saying: "I tell myself every offseason I'm not going to say anything crazy. I'm just going to have a peaceful season ... Can't do it. I'm cut from a different cloth."
Information from The Associated Press was used in this report.