1. #1
    irish1
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    Raines, not worthy of the HOF

    Is this a popularity contest or are we looking at the numbers? For his career he averaged 8 hr's/ 47 RBI's/ 38 SB's a year. He did not have 3000 hits and never even had a 200 hit season. He was a good player but lets not get crazy. He is not in the same universe as Lou Brock or Ricky Henderson, not even Craig Biggio. Rock had a good career but so did Kenny Lofton. Is Jose Reyes hall of fame material? Of course not! Stolen bases does not get you in the hall of fame. Sorry Rock, not now, not ever. Oh and never stole 100 plus in a season.
    Last edited by irish1; 01-15-17 at 08:12 AM.

  2. #2
    irish1
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    By putting Rock Raines in the hall, you just guaranteed Kenny Loften of getting in. His stats are better than Raines and he played 6 less years then him. Had a higher career average than Rock, in 17 years lofton scored 1528 runs, Rock had 1571 in 23 years. 12 years lofton scored 90+ times, while Raines had 7 years scoring 90+ runs. Lets see if they jerk Lofton around. Can't have one without the other, they are indentical players. So, now I guess if you score alot of runs, steal bases, and bat .260-.300 your in the hall of fame. So, Jose Reyes is now a lock for the HOF. Why isn't Brett Butler in there? He had a better on base percentage than Lofton, .290 career average and scored over 90+ runs 8 seasons. Did Maury Wills get the shaft ?

  3. #3
    StackinGreen
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    Just saw this.

    Raines is clearly superior to Lou Brock, who was first ballot. Let's think why this was. Consider the following:

    Hall of Fame leadoff hitter Lou Brock, whose career steals crown was swiped by Henderson, reached base fewer times than Raines (3,833) and had a lower on-base percentage (.343) and lower stolen-base success rate (75.3 percent). In fewer plate appearances, Raines had more homers and RBIs.
    The switch-hitting Raines was a seven-time All-Star, won a batting title and hit .294.

    Raines had a better lifetime OBP and OPS, and it's not close. Also, the most strikeouts he ever had in a season was 83, and he generally had in the 50s. Brock struck out over 100 times in a season 9 times and substantially higher than that (122, 127, 134, on and on) on multiple occasions. Brock's highest OBP was .385 in 1971. That was Raines career average! He also didn't have a seasons where his %SB was higher than Raines average. Raines wasn't Henderson. But he was superior to Brock in every meaningful way.


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    irish1
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    Even before your post I was rethinking Tim Raines. Judging him as a lead off hitter, he should go in the HOF. After looking the the small number of great lead off hitters and base stealers he should be there. With that said, he was not superior to Lou Brock. Brock had 3023 hits, Raines did not. Brock had more doubles, triples and more steals. Brock had 4 -200 hit sesaons, Raines never did. 8 times Brock had 190+ hits, Raines did it twice. Only 3 players in baseball history have had a 100 runs scored and 100 steals in the same season. Raines was not one. Lou Brock was. Lou Brock a great post season player. In three trips to the WS he Brock hit.391 (in 2 of those he hit over .400), he had 34 hits, 4 HR's, 13 RBI's, 16 runs scored and 14 steals in 21 games. He also has 2 rings. He stole 14 bases and was only thrown out 2. Raines post season average was .270, 1 HR and stole 3 bases while getting thrown out 3 times. Now lets talk post season, Lou Brock had a OBP of .424 while Raines was .340 and Brock had a SLG% of .655 while Raines had .349. Brock was clearly the better player and in the World Series when it really counted Brock Delivered and Raines did not. However, Raines is worthy after reconsidering. Even with his cocaine use before, during and after games.

  5. #5
    Buffalo Nickle
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    Tim Raines basically averaged 100 runs scored per year and had a .385 life OBP. He was one of the greatest leadoff men in history and Brock is not even close. Brock was actually a below average offense player with a .343 OBP. He did play in a much tougher offensive era though.

    If Raines had averaged as many RBIs as runs scored, he would have been considered a great offensive player. Scoring runs is a greater achievement than driving in a run which something baseball fans will probably never learn.

    Raines is not the type of player traditional baseball fans regard as a great player but he was an offensive force.

    Raines also played the early part of his career in an extreme pitchers park which suppressed his numbers. That type of stadium no longer exists in MLB.
    Last edited by Buffalo Nickle; 02-08-17 at 10:26 PM.

  6. #6
    StackinGreen
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    Buff, come over to my syndicate

    BTW, what's your top 1-2 reasons why scoring runs is so underrated, especially compared to driving them in?

  7. #7
    irish1
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    After further review I still stand by my statement that Raines is a hall of famer. However, there are quite a few leadoff hitters I would place ahead of Timmy. Starting with Rickey, Rose, Ichiro, Biggio, Brock, Boggs and quite possibly Johnny Damon. They are all in the top 50 in runs scored and Raines is not. Isn't the bottom line how many times you cross the plate?

  8. #8
    brooks85
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    I just saw Tanked episode with johnny damon's house.

    He said only he and babe ruth were Yankee/Red Sox world series winners which is pretty damn cool especially since he was apart of red sox finally winning. His house is amazing, he has 5 daughters which is pretty crazy I'd imagine... and he now has a boy he named Dash... lol

    not a bad name, just little guy better be fast.

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