[Rich Boy]

This strategy makes no sense to me, why would they ever do this. It only increases the number of at bats the pitcher gets and it always seems to come up in bad situations.

Any math guys know if this is a good strategy or what?

[t-wizzle]

Stupid. Only the guys who overthink it do it.

[Rich Boy]

Just now in the cincy game. Pitcher batting with 2 outs and RISP, could have been a position player...

[CanuckG]

This tells you why

http://www.foxsports.com/mlb/just-a-...roblems-041615

[habitualwinning]

You guys are overlooking certain aspects. First there are pitchers who are better hitters than some of the position players on their teams. There are a couple handfulls of pitchers with offensive WARs above 1.5 and some above 2. The other thing is it allows certain teams with the right personnel to bat multiple speed guys back to back in the 9 hole, then at the top of the order, for some manufactured runs and small ball. If you don't have pitchers that can hit well or speed/hit for average guys in the lineup then it doesn't make much sense but in some cases it does. Tony LaRussa won at least 2 WS screwing around with the idea. I think he was the manager that used it most and he was a big numbers/strategy guy so there has to be something to it or he wouldn't have utilized it.

[pavyracer]

Always better to bat pitcher 8th. Teams won't walk hitters to pitch to pitcher for final out.

[Chi_archie]

Always better to bat pitcher 8th. Teams won't walk hitters to pitch to pitcher for final out.

so a man on 2nd and two outs and the the 7th hitter is up with the pitcher on deck.

the 7th hitter can't be walked?

[manny24]

Stupid. Only the guys who overthink it do it.

like getting Munson'd

in the AL they call it Farrell'd

[sweethook]

its a bad move , but tryin to look good on the move if it helps

[pboozer57]

because they so stupid....

[MickeyMan]

so a man on 2nd and two outs and the the 7th hitter is up with the pitcher on deck.

the 7th hitter can't be walked?

Dont waste your time trying to reason with pavy, the guy is obviously severely mentally challenged.

On a good day he is able to dress himself but most of his life is spent drooling on his keyboard while staring at sbr.

[Ralphie Halves]

Dont waste your time trying to reason with pavy, the guy is obviously severely mentally challenged.

On a good day he is able to dress himself but most of his life is spent drooling on his keyboard while staring at sbr.

I was just about to say the same thing. Pavy will come with something really clever and funny, and then the next day come up with something to where you think he has to be joking, but he's not, and will defend his nonsense rather than just own up to it.

[stealthyburrito]

I believe the school of thought is that it "turns over" the lineup more quickly. I don't believe it is because the pitcher is a better hitter than the 9th hole batter. The 9th hole batter serves as a second leadoff man of sorts (speed, above avg obp), thus allowing more opportunity for the 2-4 hitters (usually where the best team's hitters are) to have more men on base - ie more RBI opportunities.

[Smoke]

like getting Munson'd

in the AL they call it Farrell'd

[BigDofBA]

I see a lot of bad information in here.

Someone said some pitchers are better hitters than position players....lmao. Who?
There might be like 1-3 pitchers in the game that can even hit .200. Larussa didn't do it bc the Cardinals pitchers could hit.

Someone else said, "So you can't pitch around the hitter and let the pitcher be the last out." Wtf are you talking about? The teams don't go down 1-2-3 in order every inning.

More often than not when a team does this, the pitcher comes up in the 8 spot with runners on base and two outs. It kills the rally.

Simply put, pitchers can't hit. Why would you move them up in the order? Simple math says that would result in more ABs for your worst hitter.

It makes no sense to me.

[44 Mag]

This strategy makes no sense to me, why would they ever do this. It only increases the number of at bats the pitcher gets and it always seems to come up in bad situations.

Any math guys know if this is a good strategy or what?

Your correct, they should lead off and get it out of the way.

[TheMoneyShot]

I personally believe it's just about team chemistry. I think some teams should try it out here and there. Make notes... did the 7th or 9th batter hit any better when placing the pitcher 8th?

I think for some teams... it will work for... and some teams it will work against.

[johnnyvegas13]

The question sounds like the beginning of a joke

[pavyracer]

I always find it hilarious when people who could not manage tee ball without fukking up the lineup have to give managers with 2000 career wins advice on how to set up a MLB lineup.

[habitualwinning]

I see a lot of bad information in here.

Someone said some pitchers are better hitters than position players....lmao. Who?
There might be like 1-3 pitchers in the game that can even hit .200. Larussa didn't do it bc the Cardinals pitchers could hit.

Someone else said, "So you can't pitch around the hitter and let the pitcher be the last out." Wtf are you talking about? The teams don't go down 1-2-3 in order every inning.

More often than not when a team does this, the pitcher comes up in the 8 spot with runners on base and two outs. It kills the rally.

Simply put, pitchers can't hit. Why would you move them up in the order? Simple math says that would result in more ABs for your worst hitter.

It makes no sense to me.

You realize there have been several pitchers who have hit over.300 for the entire season right? You realize there have been several pitchers who have hit multiple HRs in one season right? You realize there have been several pitchers with higher offensive WAR than other position players on their team right? Well if you didn't, now you know. Bumgarner has hit a HR off of Kershaw before. You know the Kershaw who most people think has been the best pitcher in MLB for the last several seasons. In 2013 Greinke had a higher BA than any other position player on the Dodgers team except HanRam who hit like .345 that season and that was a good team that almost went to the WS. I could go on and on but I don't really feel like debating something that the stats already affirm. I'm not saying I necessarily support the theory of hitting the pitcher 8th perpetually, but it makes sense for some teams in some situations. Should every team start doing it every game? Hell no. If I was a manager though, I'd utilize it periodically with the right lineup and pitcher combo for sure.

[eidolon]

The Giants haven't done it until this year, at that is because Span is batting leadoff because of his speed, but he also has some power, while Pagan used to be the leadoff and their is no real spot for him in the front 2 spots, so it is a kinda lineup move up for 1 spot for everyone but the old 1 spot (Pagan who is old now) is now batting 9th.

[HendoNation]

Big reason is to maximize the odds of having somebody on base with the top of the lineup up

[HendoNation]

It is irrelevant in terms of the # of at bats the pitcher gets, because by the time we're in the 7/8/9th inning in their 3rd or 4th at bat, you're pinch hitting for the pitcher anyways

[ROFLcopter]

Managers batting the pitcher 8th is the equivalent of terrible gamblers trying to be sharp

[BigDofBA]

You realize there have been several pitchers who have hit over.300 for the entire season right? You realize there have been several pitchers who have hit multiple HRs in one season right? You realize there have been several pitchers with higher offensive WAR than other position players on their team right? Well if you didn't, now you know. Bumgarner has hit a HR off of Kershaw before. You know the Kershaw who most people think has been the best pitcher in MLB for the last several seasons. In 2013 Greinke had a higher BA than any other position player on the Dodgers team except HanRam who hit like .345 that season and that was a good team that almost went to the WS. I could go on and on but I don't really feel like debating something that the stats already affirm. I'm not saying I necessarily support the theory of hitting the pitcher 8th perpetually, but it makes sense for some teams in some situations. Should every team start doing it every game? Hell no. If I was a manager though, I'd utilize it periodically with the right lineup and pitcher combo for sure.

So you think they bat the pitcher 8 bc he is a better hitter?

That's not why they do it. You're arguing the wrong angle bud.

[funnyb25]

they bat the pitcher 8th to try and give the top of the order some momentum with a better hitter batting 9th...i dont understand all the confusion?

[BigDofBA]

they bat the pitcher 8th to try and give the top of the order some momentum with a better hitter batting 9th...i dont understand all the confusion?

Exactly. The dude that wrote the essay was way off base arguing that some pitchers are better hitters. That has nothing to do with it. Most of the time tie Pitcher batting 8 isn't even a good hitter amongst fellow pitchers.

I still think it's a very stupid strategy.

[gryfyn1]

Big reason is to maximize the odds of having somebody on base with the top of the lineup up

This is basically the answer. Having a higher chance at runners on with the top of the order is optimal. Of course the also assume you are using optimal lineup strategy and batting your best hitters 1/2/4. Managers don't actually do this so any real benefit they would get from doing it is lost.

It like eating salad to lose weight but putting extra cheese and extra salad dressing on it then eating three servings worth.

[gryfyn1]

You realize there have been several pitchers who have hit over.300 for the entire season right? You realize there have been several pitchers who have hit multiple HRs in one season right? You realize there have been several pitchers with higher offensive WAR than other position players on their team right? Well if you didn't, now you know. Bumgarner has hit a HR off of Kershaw before. You know the Kershaw who most people think has been the best pitcher in MLB for the last several seasons. In 2013 Greinke had a higher BA than any other position player on the Dodgers team except HanRam who hit like .345 that season and that was a good team that almost went to the WS. I could go on and on but I don't really feel like debating something that the stats already affirm. I'm not saying I necessarily support the theory of hitting the pitcher 8th perpetually, but it makes sense for some teams in some situations. Should every team start doing it every game? Hell no. If I was a manager though, I'd utilize it periodically with the right lineup and pitcher combo for sure.

This is, in a word insane, Madison Bumgarner has a career ops of .524, Grienke has a career ops of .611. Last year only one qualified hitter posted an ops below .614, there career number Grienke and Bumgarner would rank 141 and 143 out of 143 with those numbers. In fact of pitcher that have made 150 plate appearances over the last 20 years only FIVE have posted and OPS over 600 and two of those were actually really bad at pitching

[astro61200]

It's more concerning when a manager routinely sticks someone fast at the top of the order instead of someone who actually gets on base.

In the end batting order doesn't mean much anyway, one player getting on puts everything out of order. As long as the pitcher is sticking to the back half then it's not going to cause an issue. Hell, could easily say that the goal is for the #7 hitter to get on, have the pitcher bunt him over, and then the #9 hitter drive him in.

[RudyRuetigger]

bobby knight said so larussa and bobby was the greatest baseball person of his time

[stealthyburrito]

I was the first to explain it properly but no props.

I feel slighted by the community I love.

[stealthyburrito]

This is, in a word insane, Madison Bumgarner has a career ops of .524, Grienke has a career ops of .611. Last year only one qualified hitter posted an ops below .614, there career number Grienke and Bumgarner would rank 141 and 143 out of 143 with those numbers. In fact of pitcher that have made 150 plate appearances over the last 20 years only FIVE have posted and OPS over 600 and two of those were actually really bad at pitching

Is one of those guys Micah Owings?

[gryfyn1]

Is one of those guys Micah Owings?

It was, but Owings wasnt much of a pitcher, he was bad as a starter and nothing more than innings fodder as a reliever.

[Hangoverblack]

Twins skipper hides rookies there. Believes it takes pressure off them. At least in their NL games. Molitor quoted as such