[moses millsap]

An article, hopefully persuasive, for BBD:

Ortiz not convinced Bonds a product of steroids
ESPN,.com news services

Count David Ortiz among those who isn't convinced Barry Bonds used illegal performance-enhancing drugs -- or if they really helped the San Francisco Giants outfielder make his run at Hank Aaron's home run record.

David Ortiz
Ortiz

"To hit the ball, the guy makes it look easy, but it ain't. I don't know how you can have that swing, consistently. I don't know how steroids can do that," Ortiz told the Boston Herald. "There are supposed to be guys using steroids in the game, and there's nobody close to Barry Bonds. What's that mean? He was using the best [stuff]? Know what I'm saying?"

The Boston Red Sox designated hitter told the Herald that no one has proven that Bonds knowingly used steroids or other performance-enhancing substances -- and that even if it were proven, he's not sure it has made a difference.

"I don't look at it like that. I look at it hitting-wise, because I don't know what steroids can do to you as a baseball player. You've still got to swing the bat, man," Ortiz said. "If I ever use steroids, and then I know what the difference can be and I'm using them, I'll tell you, 'Yeah, whatever,' but I don't know what the feelings are when you use the steroids. But I can tell you how it feels to pull yourself together to swing the bat."

In fact, Ortiz isn't 100 percent certain he hasn't taken steroids himself. He told the Herald that when he was a young player in the Dominican Republic, he used to drink protein shakes for sale there. He explained he no longer does so because he can't be sure they don't include banned substances.

"I tell you, I don't know too much about steroids, but I started listening about steroids when they started to bring that [stuff] up, and I started realizing and getting to know a little bit about it," Ortiz told the Herald. "You've got to be careful. ... I used to buy a protein shake in my country. I don't do that any more because they don't have the approval for that here, so I know that, so I'm off of buying things at the GNC back in the Dominican. But it can happen anytime, it can happen. I don't know. I don't know if I drank something in my youth, not knowing it."

Bonds and the Giants are scheduled to visit Fenway Park for a June 15-17 interleague series, and Ortiz told the newspaper that Bonds deserves a warmer welcome than he will probably get from Red Sox Nation.

"He deserves respect," Ortiz told the Herald. "People are not going to give it to him because of all the bad things running around, this and that, but people need to realize. I've heard a lot of different things about Barry Bonds, but people should just admit it -- this guy's a bad [expletive]."

And Ortiz thinks commissioner Bud Selig should commit to being on hand when Bonds breaks Aaron's major league record of 755 home runs.

"He's just making things worse," Ortiz told the Herald. "He's the commissioner, there's nothing you can do about it. You can't be saying that. What are people going to think about the game? They'll be like, 'This game is a joke.' He should come, even if he doesn't want to."

[Willie Bee]

"He's just making things worse," Ortiz told the Herald. "He's the commissioner, there's nothing you can do about it. You can't be saying that. What are people going to think about the game? They'll be like, 'This game is a joke.' He should come, even if he doesn't want to."

Agree with a lot of what Ortiz said there, especially the bit about Selig being among those who sh¡t in the bed and should be big enough to lay in it now.

Don't want steroids in the game, but as I've said all along, the crime wasn't the players trying it, the real crime was how long it took for the owners and players to clean it up.

[bigboydan]

It won't and don't Taco. You know baseball players will stick together when there in the baseball brotherhood.

[moses millsap]

It won't and don't Taco. You know baseball players will stick together when there in the baseball brotherhood.

Schilling's a big part of that brotherhood.

[bigboydan]

If Barry wasn't using roids he would have sued the authors of that book. He didn't sue them because he knows it's all true what they wrote about him.

[tacomax]

If Barry wasn't using roids he would have sued the authors of that book. He didn't sue them because he knows it's all true what they wrote about him.

If I call you a crack-smoking pedophile and you don't sue me then does that make you a crack-smoking pedophile?

[tacomax]

And incidentally let's hear your take on WB's excellent comment, Dan.

And then:

1) If steroids were not illegal in baseball
2) MLB knew players were taking steroids
3) The clubs knew players were taking steroids

Then why turn your anger to individual players? They were doing nothing against the rules of the game and they were doing it with the blessing of MLB.

[bigboydan]

If I call you a crack-smoking pedophile and you don't sue me then does that make you a crack-smoking pedophile?

Then why did Todd Helton threaten legal action again Cardinals radio broadcaster Wyane Hagen when he made a comment about him taking roids on a broadcast. The answer is quite simple really..It's because he never took them. (BTW Hagen made a public apology to Helton for that comment, and he backed of the lawsuit)

Now you know if that was the case with Bonds he would have threatened the same thing. However, he knew he couldn't because it was fact that he took them.

[tacomax]

Just because someone says something and you don't sue them doesn't mean you're guilty of the allegations. I've been called a pedophile and a homosexual and probably a pedophile homosexual on these boards but I've never sued anyone - does that make me a homosexual/pedophile?

[bigboydan]

And incidentally let's hear your take on WB's excellent comment, Dan.

And then:

1) If steroids were not illegal in baseball
2) MLB knew players were taking steroids
3) The clubs knew players were taking steroids

Then why turn your anger to individual players? They were doing nothing against the rules of the game and they were doing it with the blessing of MLB.

First off, I don't think Ortiz comments make the Red Sox organization look like a fool as well as him for even commenting on this subject. How would Ortiz know know they help your swing at all if he didn't take them.

Now to answer your questions Taco

1.) Roids are illegal back then as well as now.

2.) Look at Jason Grimsley and Jose Canseco

3.) Keven Towers and Steve Phillips both knew, and admitted it publically it was happening and looked the other way, because they couldn't afford to have another black eye put on baseball after the 1994 strike shorten season. As well as the great home run race of 1998.


In regards to your anger question... It's quite simple really.

If you were Hank Arron, Babe Ruth, ect,ect,ect, wouldn't you be a little angry if somebody was gonna break your records you worked so hard to get "legally"? You can't honestly say you wouldn't be.


Heres a good example on how it hurts a person Taco.

Lets say Hank Arron's baseball cards were valued at a million dollars, because he has the home run record. Lets say you had one of those cards that worth that amount of money. Now here comes Barry Bonds cheating his way to the top and overtaking that record, and the price of those Arron baseball cards are worthless all because of Bonds cheated to obtain that record.

You can say anything you want about the rules of the MLB at the time, but it doesn't dismiss the fact that they were not breaking the laws of the U.S.A. Last time I checked you get caught with those types of goods in your possession you goto jail.

[tacomax]

You can say anything you want about the rules of the MLB at the time, but it doesn't dismiss the fact that they were not breaking the laws of the U.S.A. Last time I checked you get caught with those types of goods in your possession you goto jail.

I can say whatever I want about the rules of MLB at the time because they were the rules of MLB at the time. Steroids were around a long time before the "steroid era" of baseball. Since I'm not American I may be wrong but I'm under the impression that they are legally available under prescription. They certainly are in the UK. If MLB allowed the use of steroids (when it was banned in, say, the Olympics for years and years before) then more fool them.

[bigboydan]

I stand corrected Taco. With a prescription you can legally have them here in the state. However, do you really think Greg Anderson was a doctor?

Rules of baseball or not he still cheated!

[BuddyBear]

Bonds has not done anything wrong....it's all accusations. Baseball is embarrassing itself.....either formally charge the guy or acknowledge his accomplishments. You can't do neither....Selig has handled this poorly (as with most things) and even worse is Hank Aaron who appears bitter over the whole thing.

I think Bonds can be a jerk...but who cares. The guy has legally done nothing wrong and if I were him I would be peeved at the treatment he receives from the media.

[bigboydan]

Bonds has admitted to cheating on his wife and his taxes. How in the world can you not think he was using roids that whole time Taco?

[moses millsap]

Bonds has admitted to cheating on his wife and his taxes. How in the world can you not think he was using roids that whole time Taco?

Was that really a bloody sock, Curt?

[BuddyBear]

Bonds has admitted to cheating on his wife and his taxes. How in the world can you not think he was using roids that whole time Taco?

Even though cheating in certain life situations may be a strong predictor of cheating in other things in life, this does not mean he cheated in baseball. You can say what you want but baseball never charged him, a jury never convicted him, he was never issued a fine or anything else that implies guilt....he was simply tried and found guilty by the media and in public opinion.

He may or may not have done it...but until someone charges him and he goes to court or what not you have to operate under the assumption that he did not do anything.

[tacomax]

Bonds has admitted to cheating on his wife and his taxes. How in the world can you not think he was using roids that whole time Taco?

OK, then. Let's assume that Player X did take steroids which were prescribed to him by a doctor. In all honesty, it's pretty easy to get hold of stuff like that if you have the right doctor. And let's assume that he took them when MLB didn't prohibit them - despite just about every other sport out there banning their use (let's take the lead of the Olympics here). They were obtained and taken legally and they were not prohibited by MLB (who, of course, knew that they were a problem in the sport since they are a problem in all sports).

What exactly has Player X done wrong?

[austintx05]

it is obvious that bonds has juiced, just look at how much bigger his body is...wouldn't suprise me if his knee problems are steroid related

[bigboydan]

What exactly has Player X done wrong?

Lied to congress and paid Greg Anderson a lot of money to go to jail and keep his mouth shut so he could avoid prison time.