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Originally Posted by mofome
I havent seen that play in a while but if I remember correctly he was running pretty hard and all of his momentum I dont think there would have been anyway he could have stopped but I could be wrong. Either way you look at it though there is a lot of players that would have pussied out over by the stands and wouldnt have caught that ball
Mofo me and you are pals but I have to really call you a fool after your last post..Yes he could have stopped but then he wouldnt have made a crucial out. Most SS would not have went flying through the stands but he did, got the out and it was the one of the sickest plays I have ever witnessed. You think it was for the attention? come on pal! It took balls for him to do that...of course you would never admiit that because you want to bash Jeter for whatever reason.
Tennesee Sucks.
How many times do you see willie tavarez thrown out from 2nd to home or 1rst to 3rd?
Lets keep in mind, he's hit in the best spot in baseball for almost his entire career. 2nd for the yanks? there is no place to get more good pitches to hit. hes a great player, but i laugh when i hear people talk about the intangibles all the time. if he was a red i dont think he's any lock for the hall. as of now, of course he is.
LOL, I like how you throw in Tennessee sucks. Hilarious, but anyway yeah I agree that play was sick by Jeter. He had so much momentum going after that ball and I dont think he did it for attention he gets enough attention as it is he doesnt need to dive in the stands to get it
[QUOTE=AgainstAllOdds;700416]Mofo me and you are pals but I have to really call you a fool after your last post..Yes he could have stopped but then he wouldnt have made a crucial out. Most SS would not have went flying through the stands but he did, got the out and it was the one of the sickest plays I have ever witnessed. You think it was for the attention? come on pal! It took balls for him to do that...of course you would never admiit that because you want to bash Jeter for whatever reason.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xSAoZXV_IS4
he could have stopped after he had the ball.
look at the 25 second mark, he could have stopped, hes just dramatic. i laughed when i saw it. this great athlete was 10 feet from the stands when he caught the ball, i can guarantee if there was a pit of snakes over there he would have stopped and hustled on back to the dug out, but instead it was a chance to make some overrated play. almost as awful as that non throw-out of Giambi.
I wouldn't admit it? i touted him for mvp as much as anyone two years ago. i think its laughable when you have something honest to say and people make up these pathetic reasons like you 'want to bash jeter' or you are a 'hater'. all i did was state a fact, relax.
oh yeah, it took balls for him to do that? you've got to be kidding me.
Last edited by mofome; 04-23-08 at 10:33 AM.
you think he could have stopped? as 5 star has said...his momentum carried him...mofo....im not gonna argue this point anymore...you think Jeter is overratted I say hes not....
whats he rated? only then can i tell you whether or not he's overrated.
mofo just stfu and let it go...we dont need the sarcasm
excuse me?
1) that wasn't sarcastic you sensitive woman.
2) who do you think you are?
Bad stats: BA, Errors, Wins, ERADonJuan, I'd love to see your list of the only stats we should all be looking at and those we shouldn't give a flip about. I'll bring them up at the next SABR meeting I attend and see what the group thinks.
Good stats (there are many more beyond this list): EqA, VORP, RF, RAA, WARP3, OBP, OPS(+), dERA, NRA.
The thing about errors is that players who get to many more balls are going to have more chances to make errors. If one shortstop can get to 500 ground balls and makes errors on 20 of them, I'd take that guy over someone who can only get to 400 ground balls and makes errors on 2 of them. Wouldn't you?
Jeter is one of the most talked about figures in the game and at no point have i said hes overrated. Truly, where is he rated? best SS of all time? top 5? top 10? best in the game today? best of the last 10 years? some people overrate him and some people underrate him, just as they do most players. imo he would not be a HOF-er if he wasn't batting 2nd for the yanks, but he'd be one of the best in the game regardless. thats where he rates to me and some agree. so, maybe he's rated just perfectly. last thing we need is aao getting tough on the boards, i thought i had already seen it all.
don't forget about SB in base stats. even though i disagree, i know its one you don't care for.
After seeing the highlight again I definitely think the momentum carried him in. I actually thought he was further away from the stands than he was. He only took a step or 2 after catching the ball running full speed and leaped into the stands... just my opinion
I only watch the clip when i need a good laugh.
as this guy says, people make this play out to be so much more than it was. he caught a pop up, not like its rowand running into the wall at full speed.
MSG Network is running a series of promos on its MSG+ channel titled "Greatest Days." In these ads, New York sports fans (actors) recount their greatest memories of their favorite teams.
The spot I saw most recently features a Yankees "fan" celebrating the memory of Derek Jeter diving into the stands to catch a foul ball against the Red Sox on July 1, 2004. The fan goes so far as to use a railing to illustrate Jeter reaching for the ball as he dives into the stands to make the catch. The catch has become part of Yankee lore.
Only it never happened. At least, it didn't happen the way the baseball hype machine would have you believe it did. And with that, much to my annoyance, MSG perpetuates a myth that extends well beyond the Yankee fan base.
Even ESPN.com's recap of the game bites hard on the myth: "The All-Star shortstop made one of the greatest plays of his championship career, hurtling headfirst into the stands at full tilt for a catch that ended the 12th inning."
Feel free to take a look at the video yourself, if you can still find it (I no longer can—this page on MLB.com has a link but the video does not load). What you'll see is Jeter get a great jump and make a very good, hustling play. But he certainly does not dive into the stands to make the catch.
In fact, he made the catch right near the foul line.
You could realistically argue that the ball would have landed in fair territory. On a full sprint, Jeter was unable to slow down after securing the ball and consequently fell over the wall into the stands.
It was a remarkable effort in a big spot. Commend Jeter for his instincts, his hustle, and his focus in holding onto the ball. But the ease with which the play has been mischaracterized has always bothered me.
How does one make a diving catch into the stands on a ball that looks like it might have been fair? The history of baseball has been written to make it so.
Jeter has already accomplished enough in his career to be considered a legend. Even if you want to downplay his offensive abilities or criticize his defensive range, he has been one of those special players whose aura (yes, Curt, I said aura) is even greater than his wealth of accomplishments.
That's what happens when you're an All-Star shortstop and captain who wins the World Series four out of five years and spends, so far, his entire career with the Yankees.
We don't need to make Derek Jeter any greater. We don't need to add to Yankee lore by inventing plays that didn't happen. The genuine stuff is convincing enough.
He isn't be best SS in the game, but he is far from the worst. I would take Jeter over Eckstein and Jason Bartlett.
BAUS
Semantics my friend. Regardless of the" great" pitches he gets hitting 2nd for the Yankees he still has to put the bat on the ball. If he was a Red he wouldn't have gone to the World Series 6 times and won 4 time.... it's not his fault.How many times do you see willie tavarez thrown out from 2nd to home or 1rst to 3rd?
Lets keep in mind, he's hit in the best spot in baseball for almost his entire career. 2nd for the yanks? there is no place to get more good pitches to hit. hes a great player, but i laugh when i hear people talk about the intangibles all the time. if he was a red i dont think he's any lock for the hall. as of now, of course he is.
If Willie Taveras was hitting 2nd for the Yankees would he be just as good as DJ. How bout Renteria? Regardless of the opportunities he gets he makes the most of his opportunities. World Series MVP should be enough to make my point. Here's to Mr. November
Semantics my friend. Regardless of the" great" pitches he gets hitting 2nd for the Yankees he still has to put the bat on the ball. If he was a Red he wouldn't have gone to the World Series 6 times and won 4 time.... it's not his fault.
If Willie Taveras was hitting 2nd for the Yankees would he be just as good as DJ. How bout Renteria? Regardless of the opportunities he gets he makes the most of his opportunities. World Series MVP should be enough to make my point. Here's to Mr. November
Yes, he has to put the bat on the ball. he has the luxury of being in the easiest spot to hit in the entire league. thats cool for him. fault? its not a fault, its just a fact. if he was with the reds he would just be a good ss that never won anything.
Willie has intangibles, he gets from 1rst to 3rd and doesn't get thrown out.
Are you seriously comparing DJ's "intagibles" with Willie Taveras. Sure if DJ were with the Reds he may not have won anything. I can easily say he could have won with the Red Sox, White Sox, Cardinals, Mets, etc.Yes, he has to put the bat on the ball. he has the luxury of being in the easiest spot to hit in the entire league. thats cool for him. fault? its not a fault, its just a fact. if he was with the reds he would just be a good ss that never won anything.
Willie has intangibles, he gets from 1rst to 3rd and doesn't get thrown out.
Hitting 2nd for the Yankees must be super easy. There's absolutely no pressure on him to perform.
how can you easily say he would have won with those teams? because they got there without him?
You asked me if i ever see jeter get thrown out. i asked you the same about another player. what are intangibles aside from not being thrown out?
Hmm, so much I'd like to sit down and discuss/debate with you. I wouldn't put ERA in my Top 4 of 'bad stats,' and yes, trying to rate fielding in almost any stat column is impossible in my opinion.
I've had some fun with a few SABR guys recently who suddenly climbed on this Pythagorean wins thing. I love to hear about new stats, but in general just think a lot of them are bull and can't help but laugh when someone thinks some of the sabrmetrics are new. It's like the fantasy baseball bit, people thinking that's only 20-25 years old. We played fantasy baseball back in 1968, just didn't call it that. And we used something akin to OPS as our one and only offensive stat, only we didn't call it OPS then either.
If you're going to be in Vegas this summer, would love to sit down and yack about some of this over a couple of cold 'n crispies
ERA isn't a terrible stat like wins, but it doesn't really do a great job of measuring the pitcher's performance as it sometimes relies on what the bullpen does after a pitcher leaves the game with runners on base, among other things.
I'd be up for a beer or ten in Vegas, but I'm not sure I'll be able to make it to the SBR Bash as I have a wedding in New Zealand to attend around that same time. I'll definitely be in Vegas some time this summer but I think you're based in Texas, right?
Derek Jeter would be a HOF'er no matter what team he plays for. And, by the way, if you decided to bat ARod 2nd in the playoffs, he'd still hit like Mario Mendoza.
Batting 2nd in the Yankees lineup is not the panacea for everything ... especially when Jeter first came up to the Yankees. For those of you who have trouble following baseball, the Yankees were not exactly an offensive juggernaut during those years.
Fo, sorry to confuse you with the facts.
(oh, and I always thought batting in front of Barry Bonds during his heyday was the best place in the world to hit -- who batted in that spot for the Giants again? Will they be going to the HOF as well?)
Last edited by moneyline; 04-23-08 at 03:19 PM.
Who do you think you are??!?!?! who even says that anymore?excuse me?
1) that wasn't sarcastic you sensitive woman.
2) who do you think you are?
Who do you think you are??!?!?! who even says that anymore?
I did. I was just asking a question. I was not aware of your toughness or your sensitivity. Carry on.
I don't know about the best intangibles, but he can play on my team anytime.
JC
very much agreed. I don't know that anyone has said he stinks.
You smell like beef jerky.I did. I was just asking a question. I was not aware of your toughness or your sensitivity. Carry on.
Just comparing that to your Reds comments. DJ is a SS and #2 hitter. He's not a #3 or cleanup guy....he's a table setter.
Throw DJ on the Rays, Royals, Reds, Giants, etc and he won't win because the rest of the team sucks. Throw him on the Cards, Mets, Tigers, White Sox, etc and it's a different story.
Saying that a team wouldn't have won with him is just as easy as saying a successful team can win with him. It's a pointless debate and the same can be said of any other player in MLB.
Throw Pujols on the Reds and the Reds still won't win it all but Phat Albert will still get his #'s. Doesn't make Albert any less of a player than he is. Take Mariano off the Yankees and is he still considered to be as great as he is? Take DJ off the 2000 Yankees WS team and the Mets easily win that series.
You asked me if i ever see jeter get thrown out. i asked you the same about another player. what are intangibles aside from not being thrown out?
How bout hitting/grounding a ball to the right side of the field with a runner on 2nd with less than 2 out? How bout not going for an extra base when you're not 95% sure you're going to make it. How bout doing things that don't show up in a box score.
I've watched him play his entire career and he does things that many others don't. DJ haters always talk about him being overrated but only see him play on highlights when watching ESPN.
He's a Yankee, successful on and off the field, dates super hot chicks and has people bashing him for no other reason other than he's a Yankee, successful and gets hot chicks. Oh yeah and the 4 W.S. rings, Rookie of the Year, All Star Game MVP, World Series MVP, etc.
Bottom line is that haters will always hate and guys like me who thought they would never see a Yankees World Series in their lifetime will defend the guy who played a major hand in the teams success.
There's 3 players I will defend till death. Mattingly, DJ and Rivera. Bash away and I will continue to defend.
You mean like refusing to move to 3B even though it would benefit the Yankees?How bout doing things that don't show up in a box score.
Yes, accomodating a clubhouse cancer (judging by the results before and after ARod visits teams) would have been a great idea. ARod has handled pressure situations so well since he's come to NY. He'd really have handled it well taking over SS from the most beloved figure in NY sports at the moment ...
(he would've, as the old George once said, 'spit the bit' at SS)
A. The Yankees would never ask him to move to 3B.
B. He doesn't have the arm to play 3B everyday.
C. If he were to be asked to move 2nd would make more sense.
Don't confuse Juan. He thinks Jeter was managing the Yankees in 2004 -- I just don't understand why the Yankees kept Torre on the payroll.
Jeter consistantly get a pass due to his hitting and clutching hitting. Take hitting away and he's bottom 3rd of the league at SS.
Clubhouse cancer=lol. Team chemistry means pretty much nothing in baseball. Given that SS is a more difficult fielding position and Arod is a better fielding SS, it makes sense. The rest of your post could be summed up with "sfdnksjnkn ahdfbd hasdfi" and been logically equal.Yes, accomodating a clubhouse cancer (judging by the results before and after ARod visits teams) would have been a great idea. ARod has handled pressure situations so well since he's come to NY. He'd really have handled it well taking over SS from the most beloved figure in NY sports at the moment ...
His arm is the only thing keeping his defense at SS above minor league level and his defense is still atrocious.B. He doesn't have the arm to play 3B everyday.
Take away Tim Lincecum's pitching and he's a bottom 3rd of the league pitcher.Jeter consistantly get a pass due to his hitting and clutching hitting. Take hitting away and he's bottom 3rd of the league at SS.
Team chemistry means nothing? How do you know, Juan? Yu seem so gosh darn sure!
And you are right. ARod has handled the pressure of October in NY so well so far. I'm sure he would have handled replacing Jeter at SS the exact same way ...
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