[roc024]

Hi everyone,

I created an account just to make everyone aware of Pinnacle refusing to payout a bet I made earlier. I have filed a complaint with SBR as well and the case is pending.

To begin with, I have been using Pinnacle for about 1.5 months now and have had no issues in the past. The issue begins with an e-sport 8-leg parlay bet made on 22-Mar-2015 and another bet made on 24-Mar-2015. The specific event in question is Byul vs MarineKing in the SK Telecom Proleague event.

The 8-leg parlay was a $7.92 bet to win $300.33 and the single bet was a $2,109.58 bet for Byul to win on moneyline.

I'll explain the moneyline bet first: I originally wanted to wager $3,000 but their system claimed this bet size was "over their limit" (edit: their e-sports bet limit indicated was actually above this value, i.e. their max on the site was over $3,000). Their system then auto-corrected my bet to be for $2,109.58. I then accepted this bet and the bet was successfully accepted.

For the 8-leg parlay, the Byul/MarineKing match was included in the parlay as well.

The event then takes place and Byul is victorious. I notice that events in my parlay are being labeled as "Win" except the Byul/MarineKing event.

I then wake up to find an e-mail from Pinnacle saying that my bet was fraudulently placed and that my stakes were refunded because I fraudulently circumvented their betting limits. This is wrong. I did not do anything fraudulent. Their system auto-corrected my bet and then successfully accepted this wager.

Here is the e-mail in question:
Dear Customer,
[E Sports] [Starcraft 2 - SK Telecom Proleague] [Match] Byul vs MarineKing. Your bet with ticket-ID: 451443094, 451990153 has been refunded. All bets taken have been refunded due to the following reason: [Your bet was placed in fraudulent manner circumventing our betting limits and system regulations.] . Thank you!
Regards,
Pinnacle Sports

I have a picture of the bet Pinnacle should fairly pay me out on. I have included the bet ticket #s and highlighted in red the bets that are in question.
pinnacle-esports-noPayout(1).jpg

Any advice would be helpful. In any event, I will be using this thread as a chronology of my communication with SBR and Pinnacle.

Bottom line: What scares me is the thought that Pinnacle accepted this bet and is unwilling to make a payout when the bet won. Had the bet lost, I'm beginning to feel as if they would not have refunded the stakes because of what they claim is an "error." This is not an error. Please Pinnacle, do what's right and pay out my winning bets.
Edit: I should clarify this. I'm asking, would they have refunded the stakes even if the bet had lost? I ask you guys, the more experienced ones.

Side note: If anyone is wondering about the size of the bets, I regularly make large bets on e-sports and pro sports.

Thank you for reading,
roc024

Edit: 2:45 PST Mar-24-15: I added more detail to the original complaint I sent to SBR so I thought I would add it to this post as well,
I also placed a bet on CJ Entus. CJ Entus is the name of the Starcraft II team in which Byul is a part of. CJ Entus won their match with Byul being one of the individual victors. Pinnacle found no reason to cancel the CJ Entus bet and paid me out for this. Image attached (it's the bottom bet):
pinnacle-esports-2.jpg
My question is this: If Byul winning helped CJ Entus win and there was any sort of fraud, why was the CJ Entus bet also not cancelled? Why is only my parlay and moneyline bet on Byul the ones that are cancelled? This does not add up on my end.

I also emailed Pinnacle prior to the complaint and received this response from them:

Dear Client,

As stated in our previous email, we are not accusing you personally of any suspicious betting. We have cancelled all wagers on this particular game because there was a pattern detected of wagering on the game that has been determined to be suspicious. We have a responsibility to all of our customers to ensure that any suspicious play is taken seriously and where necessary all wagers on these games will be cancelled.

Pinnacle Sports works with the governing body of many of the leagues we offer bets for, and it is also our duty to ensure that they are effectively communicated with as soon as we detect any suspicious activity.

This action is taken to protect our customers and the integrity of our product, and we are not in a position to reconsider this decision.

Kind Regards,
Customer Service Department / Pinnacle Sports

Again, things don't add up. I was watching the line move and it was moving, sure. But I will also add: the game just before Byul/MarineKing also moved like crazy (like any betting event). The game before my wagered game was skyHigh vs. Losira. In that game, the line jumped from -106 skyHigh -109 Losira to something like +106 (or even higher) for skyHigh and -120 (or even lower) for Losira. skyHigh won that match (the dog won the match). That match was included in my parlay AND was credited with a win with no suspicious activity? Any explanations here?

[Optional]

No, you don't get a refund of stakes on a losing bet if you breach the terms.

Not that I'm saying you breached the terms. But it's irrelevant to your claim what they might have done in that case.

Sit tight and I'm sure SBR will be able to help with either an explanation or a new ruling.

[Jerm3462]

Pay the dude. Your system accepted the wager. When did pinnacle start bickering over 2000??

[roc024]

Optional, thanks for the clarification.

Jerm, thanks for the support.

I hope the investigation goes smoothly and well. I'm willing to cooperate with both sides should they need to reach out to me for any more information required.

[YorkHunt]

How did he circumvent limits HAHA laughable

[pjesnik24]

well, he placed a 8$ bet to circumvent limits. I always do that at sbobet, if I want to bet 550 for example and they give me 500 as max I first place 50 (never changes the odds) and place another 500 as max
pinnacle MUST pay on that bet if the OP is telling 100% the truth

[roc024]

Pjesnik, if you notice, the parlay was made on March 22, well before I made the large wager on the single match moneyline (March 24). If that was the case, their system auto-corrected me and I assume the auto-correct would take care of this scenario.

[roc024]

Sorry for making it look like I'm spamming, but I have added an edit which includes Pinnacle's response and some other questionable behaviour.

[Hareeba!]

Extraordinary!

Despite what they say in their second email, they most definitely did accuse you of fraudulent conduct in their first email.

Not the sort of thing one expects from the world's leading bookmaker.

[SBR Forum]

Update by SBR: The player's dispute has been resolved in his favor.

We will speak with Pinnacle management per the player's request to confirm the details of the dispute.

[jjgold]

Update by SBR: The player's dispute has been resolved in his favor.

We will speak with Pinnacle management per the player's request to confirm the details of the dispute.

Good job..good ending

[roc024]

Just to clarify, it has not been resolved yet. Resolutions are still being discussed. I will post a recap once it is complete.

[DiggityDaggityDo]

[roc024]

To update everyone: SBR has been the mediator between myself and Pinnacle. Apparently Pinnacle is willing to pay out my contested bets only on the conditions that my account is closed thereafter. I have 4 pending futures bets which will remain. In the event that they win, I will have my account opened temporarily to cash out. All this information is being given to me through SportsBookReview.

I'm disappointed to learn that Pinnacle has reached this conclusion. They would rather not take my future action on a mistake their site and system has made over a less than $2000 winnings. Again, I will say this til the end, I did not commit any fraud in any way, shape or form. I will prove that in any way possible with as much evidence as I can collect. I will take the winnings from this contested bet and my pending futures and sadly looks like my Pinnacle days are over.

I will not speak ill of their product. They are definitively the best product in the business, however my personal experience has soured over this.

Hopefully this thread stays up and I will detail the cashout process as well.

I'd like to thank sam9ball and Lou for all their help and even taking my dispute on. Also, I'd like to thank all of you for reading and supporting me. If you have any more questions, or comments you would like to leave, please do.

Edit: I can't seem to edit my initial post with this update, so I hope everyone reads this post as well.

[Hareeba!]

A less than satisfactory result.
Shame on Pinnacle.
Be good to hear SBR's take on it.

[roc024]

Hareeba, once the issues have been found, I too would love to hear from SBR and Pinnacle themselves. I have sent Pinnacle a tweet containing this thread asking them to reconsider.

Some more information about myself: I started my account in February after all the good reviews I read and through word of mouth. When I originally started betting, I didn't bet big values. My February results are: Wagered: $896.65 for a net of $-85.33. In March, I decided to forgo risk management (lol, not recommended) and effectively became a losing player (punter, -EV, etc.). I started wagering 4 figures on e-sports and pro sports (lost my first few 4-figure e-sports bets, mind you). My March total to date is wagered $60,332.36 for a net of $3,720.26 (without the disputed winning wagers added).

The reason I'm posting this is because even though I am effectively a punter, I did not do anything illegal or commit any wrongdoings of any sort. Any more info needed, I will gladly provide.

Edit: I would like to wager on the cricket game tonight even with all these issues happening. Do you guys think it's a good idea or should I just wait for all this to settle, lol. My account is neither closed nor credited at this time. Can't believe I'm this big of a degen, haha.

[raiders72001]

I just saw this at another site. There were claims that the match was fixed. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XbHBQAco8#t=87

teudaan 15 hours ago

this game was fixed. damn shame.

[raiders72001]

I'm not saying that roc024 did anything wrong. I linked this thread at another site and then fix matching posts followed.

A reddit posting:
http://www.reddit.com/r/starcraft/co...spl_this_time/

Rekrul Post people are referring too:

---

On March 25 2015 08:08 Rekrul wrote:
facts:

1. illegal sports betting in korea is much bigger than it was during the BW scandal so there is more $ to be earned from throwing matches, pinnacle is just a small piece of the pie

2. everyone in the korean sc2 scene already knows that fixing is rampant in proleague especially among players who don't make much money and aren't good enough to dominate individual leagues (where it definitely happens sometimes as well)


3. sc2 is already suffering in korea as is, them investigating or going public trying to stop it is not only futile with the given industry dynamics, but would also likely destroy sc2 in korea

[raiders72001]

For those who didn't watch SPL today, MarineKing lost to ByuL in a strange manner. He didn't react to a proxy hatch/spine that was within vision.Turns out the match had a very strange betting pattern on Pinnacle, and they voided all bets because of it.
Betting lines just before match start.
Afaik no statement has been made by Pinnacle or Kespa yet.

http://www.reddit.com/r/starcraft/co...spl_this_time/


Closing odds at Pinnacle


Once again, I'm not saying that roc024 did anything wrong. Just passing along information.

[roc024]

Wow, thanks for this info raiders, this is news to me. I will be following this closely.

In all honesty, I chose this match by fluke because of the odds at the time I was betting (just past midnight local) and I was trying to get unstuck by betting the Jazz against the Timberwolves earlier that night.

Suffice to say, I will no longer be betting on StarCraft II any more (or e-sports).

Looking forward to more discussions with SBR and Pinnacle.

[Hareeba!]

I just saw this at another site. There were claims that the match was fixed. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XbHBQAco8#t=87

Well I have no understanding at all of that "sport" but I thought the general rule with suspected fixes is that bets are left pending an official investigation of the game?

Surely the parlay at least should be paid with an appropriate adjustment for the alleged fixed leg?

And shouldn't Pinnacle be apologising for their first email accusing the player of fraud?

[roc024]

Hareeba, if you look at my EDIT from the first post, you will see Pinnacle actually did pay the adjusted parlay.

Edit: I am new to the match fixing conversation, so I am not sure what the policies are especially if there hasn't been a formal investigation?

[raiders72001]

Well I have no understanding at all of that "sport" but I thought the general rule with suspected fixes is that bets are left pending an official investigation of the game?

Surely the parlay at least should be paid with an appropriate adjustment for the alleged fixed leg?

And shouldn't Pinnacle be apologising for their first email accusing the player of fraud?

I agree with you.

[roc024]

If you read the email from the Edit part of my first post and line it up with this info, I understand what they are saying now. The first e-mail sent, however, was a straight automated email with the accusation. I would be happy with an explanation even, no apology needed -- seems like I just got caught in the crossfire for this particular event and match. Again, learned my lesson the hard way, not betting this ever again. I will understand if it takes a while for them to make a statement since so many variables are involved. I just hope it ends well.

[Optional]

If you read the email from the Edit part of my first post and line it up with this info, I understand what they are saying now. The first e-mail sent, however, was a straight automated email with the accusation. I would be happy with an explanation even, no apology needed -- seems like I just got caught in the crossfire for this particular event and match. Again, learned my lesson the hard way, not betting this ever again. I will understand if it takes a while for them to make a statement since so many variables are involved. I just hope it ends well.

It does look like you are just an innocent bystander.

What Hareeba said about match fixing is correct, in official sports with a recognized control authority anyway. Often it takes months or more than a year for bets to be settled in those cases. And everyone just has to wait. But this is an esport so it's really just up to Pinny if no police type authority has become involved.

I don't know why the first message was sent but it does appear there is reasonable grounds for a void based on the later info to me.

And it's not that uncommon for Pinny, 5Dimes and a couple of other books to offer the same deal to players who disagree about gradings they are putting to you.

If you don't agree it should be a void and insist on being paid, they'll give you the option to take those winnings and go if you like.

Easy to cry not fair. But is it really? Or is it better than just being told you are wrong and you have no option? Or do you see a third option where you think they should change their mind and pay everyone based on what we know now?

[Hareeba!]

Yep. In the circumstances I'd accept the void but would ask for a payout on the rest of the parlay.

And I'd stay well clear of such crap "sports" in future!

[raiders72001]

I wonder what the consequences would have been for MarineKing if he had won the match.

[roc024]

If you don't agree it should be a void and insist on being paid, they'll give you the option to take those winnings and go if you like.

Easy to cry not fair. But is it really? Or is it better than just being told you are wrong and you have no option? Or do you see a third option where you think they should change their mind and pay everyone based on what we know now?

Given that the match fixing suggestion is news to me and the fact that the original e-mail was accusing me of fraudulent activities, I felt as if I have a case whereby I didn't commit any wrongdoings on my end. Hate to use it as an excuse but as a new bettor, I wasn't sure exactly what was happening or what to do. Now that this has surfaced, I expect Pinnacle to be professional as I've seen them be for the short while I've been with them and will accept their ruling.

Pinnacle has reached out to me on Twitter apologizing for the delay and that customer service will explain.

[dealer wins]

So will betting the max on match odds, and then -0.5 on a footie team (as this doesnt necessarily change even when the match price drops following a max bet) also be "fraudulent circumvention of betting limits"

This stinks basically, I thought Pinny were better than this.

IMO if you can place the bet, you should be paid the bet (Palp excepted). Its not complicated for books to have basic software that stops you betting over limits, max returns etc

[pjesnik24]

Just take the money, change your internet provider and buy a new PC and get a friend sign up for you. At least you get a new PC for that money

[drjohn]

Just take the money, change your internet provider and buy a new PC and get a friend sign up for you. At least you get a new PC for that money

sounds like asking for more trouble ...

[xtrader]

Pinnacle must pay. There is no other solution. Speaking to governing bodies ... that is bs. Since when do they care about stuff like that? Even if there was a fix they aren't bound by any law or regulation to act in a certain way. A different book might haven been, not them. A lot of players monitor live movements and it doesn't mean that the player had some inside information. They cannot prove that and it's not their job anyway. They can always keep the limits lower in leagues/sports they are worried of additional risks. Managing risk through line moves and limits is what they are supposed to be good anyway.

Something from wikipedia about an alleged match fixing :

In October 2008, SBOBET was asked to turn over any evidence they might have on the possible match fixing scandal in The Football Association (FA) championship between Norwich City and Derby County. SBOBET denied the FA's request, deeming it was "excessive" and would be a breach of customer privacy^[12] Derby County won the game 2–1. In the end, the FA found no evidence that match fixing had taken place.^[13]

This is what a professional book must do.

[roc024]

Update: After reading over the suggestion of match fixing, I have decided to accept whatever ruling Pinnacle has held for these disputed tickets. I have emailed their customer support and cc'd SBR mentioning how I would like to withdraw my dispute in light of all this new evidence.

You all make great points but it is at the discretion of Pinnacle in this domain. I told them I wished to keep my account open and they can do as they please with these disputed tickets.

Bottom line: I'm not betting on e-sports again. After researching last night, enough cases like these exist to curb me from betting it.

Edit: Pinnacle has responded to me and my account is now re-opened without the disputed winnings. This is satisfactory to me. I hope this thread remains open for other users who go through similar experiences as I did. My thanks again to SBR for their help in this matter. Note, during this whole ordeal, no one really explained the situation to me. I had to learn from content posted in this thread.

[raiders72001]

roc024- It's good to see a honest person such as yourself. While most complaints are valid on this forum, there are a few where dishonest posters try to strong arm a book through the use of forums.

[DISTROYA]

sorry for not reading each post on this thread, certainly an interesting situation.
If suspicious betting/game activity was detected, bets should be voided before the game starts.
Would they have said anything if wager lost?