[zstevens]

Why do the books in Vegas want a bettor to get a players card? Of what advantage is that to them? What do they do with the information?

Thanks

[SBRMAN23]

maybe to be able to track you im not sure never been but would like to know also going in March first time.

[davidchong]

basically promotions, also works as tracking player.

[BigDofBA]

The players card tracks your play but you earn credit towards comps.

You don't have to get one but you should. Basically the casino awards you with free things such as meals, show tickets, etc. the more you play because they want your business.

It's a good thing and pretty standard to be offered one.

[Tomato]

The players card tracks your play but you earn credit towards comps.

You don't have to get one but you should. Basically the casino awards you with free things such as meals, show tickets, etc. the more you play because they want your business.

It's a good thing and pretty standard to be offered one.

0/2

[Hankwins]

0/2

i thought free drinks was the extent of comps sports betting in .vegas. what is your take on this guys claim?

[goblue12]

Some places require you to put wagers on cards, assuming you're consistently betting nickels and dimes.

You should avoid getting a card at all costs if you're a steam chaser / arbitrage bettor.

They will track you and ban you when you run hot. Assuming you're a local and visit these places regularly.

If you're a tourist (or a recreational sports bettor) there's no harm in having a card.

[James D]

Agree completely with Tomato and go blue.

For a tourist/recreational bettor it is good to use the card. If you are a hotel guest or your card shows you play in other parts of the casino and are a valued guest of the property they give you higher limits. Comps are pretty limited, virtually nothing really for sports betting. Horse racing you get comped pretty strong but not sports.

If you are sharp or arbitrage betting it is smarter not to get tracked via a card if possible

[James D]

i thought free drinks was the extent of comps sports betting in .vegas. what is your take on this guys claim?

That is not technically true, but the volume that has to be wagered at a decent property is REALLY HIGH. You can walk in and bet 5000 a game on NFL and bet 6 or 7 games on a sunday and it wont get you a room comp. MAYBE someone will sign you a 30 dollar coffee shop ticket depending on the property.

The major hotels do not like sports betting. They have sports betting because the other hotels do, and each property needs to offer what there competitors offer. The casino would prefer you were at a slot machine or in the blackjack pit. Not betting a sporting event that takes three hours and is in their eyes a flip of the coin. They would prefer you flipped a coin at a blackjack table 150 times in that same three hours. The likelihood of them getting your money increases dramatically in all other parts of the casino once you step out of the sports book and they know it.

They do not mind horse racing because they get a flat commission each bet and the race is 2 minutes then win or lose you bet again. That is why horse racing players get comped and sports do not.

[mtneer1212]

That is not technically true, but the volume that has to be wagered at a decent property is REALLY HIGH. You can walk in and bet 5000 a game on NFL and bet 6 or 7 games on a sunday and it wont get you a room comp. MAYBE someone will sign you a 30 dollar coffee shop ticket depending on the property.

The major hotels do not like sports betting. They have sports betting because the other hotels do, and each property needs to offer what there competitors offer. The casino would prefer you were at a slot machine or in the blackjack pit. Not betting a sporting event that takes three hours and is in their eyes a flip of the coin. They would prefer you flipped a coin at a blackjack table 150 times in that same three hours. The likelihood of them getting your money increases dramatically in all other parts of the casino once you step out of the sports book and they know it.

They do not mind horse racing because they get a flat commission each bet and the race is 2 minutes then win or lose you bet again. That is why horse racing players get comped and sports do not.

If casinos do not like sports betting, then why is Atlantic City begging for it?

[tto827]

If casinos do not like sports betting, then why is Atlantic City begging for it?

Because as he said, it brings players in the door. Once your inside, they'd rather have you playing at the tables.

[zstevens]

Thanks for the helpful information fellas. When I go into a book request to place a wager for a dime or more various shops ask do you have a rewards card? When the answer is no, they tell me they can only take so much on the event without a card but could do more with a card.

I assume getting tracked=getting banned? The benefit is increased limits, potential downfall being that they could single you out and show you the door.

Consensus seems to be if your sharp don't get the card, because eventually that leads to being banned.

[James D]

If casinos do not like sports betting, then why is Atlantic City begging for it?

Like TTO said, because it will bring people to the destination, and the gamblers will stay at the hotels/resorts in atlantic city and more importantly they will gamble on other things like slots and table games.

If you bet sports at many hotels in vegas and across the state, you are not betting versus that casino hotel, you are betting with William Hill. This company has well over 100 sports betting locations in the state of nevada. These hotels outsource the sports bets because they do not want the risk but they NEED to provide the sports betting option to their guests. This is just a few I know personally.
Four queens
Binions
Riviera
Hooters
Ellis island
golden gate
plaza
tuscany

Like I said this is just the books I know off the top of my head. Over 50% of the sportsbooks in nevada are run by william hill. They bought luckys leroys and cal neva and have huge percentage of the small betting shops around the state and the sports action at the less high end casinos in vegas/reno/laughlin etc etc

Check out this article

Direct from Vegas: John Avello – the Odds Making Fellow – Wynn Las Vegas Sportsbook Manager, on the Odds and the Action for Super Bowl XLVII, 49ers vs. Ravens, More | CYInterview

This article is from last week it is an interview with John Avello current sports book director at the Wynn. He states the Wynn had a LOSING football season. Think about that, all that space and all those resources utilized in this megaluxury resort and the sportsbook generated a net loss over the busiest seven months of the year.
You think any other gambling division at Wynn/Encore is in the red the last seven months?

Also like I mentioned there are dozens of casinos that outsource sports to william hill, you think they outsource table games or pit action to anyone?

[James D]

Thanks for the helpful information fellas. When I go into a book request to place a wager for a dime or more various shops ask do you have a rewards card? When the answer is no, they tell me they can only take so much on the event without a card but could do more with a card.

I assume getting tracked=getting banned? The benefit is increased limits, potential downfall being that they could single you out and show you the door.

Consensus seems to be if your sharp don't get the card, because eventually that leads to being banned.

Z,
If you are betting at a MGM/Mirage property or a Ceasars property try and bet at the more high end properties. It sometimes gets you passed the radar. For instance if you want a dime on a NBA game at MGM resorts, dont go to xcalibur or luxor, go to bellagio or Aria, they notice the 1000 a lot less and sometimes they just beg you as a high end tourist and do not ask for card. same applies to Ceasars properties, dont bet a dime at harrahs or the quad, when across the street at Ceasars they very well may not notice.

Another angle is to go buy casino table chips from the pit. If you walk up and bet 1000 with 10 black chips they logically think you are a table player also and give you a little more slack.

These moves do not ALWAYS work but they absolutely do sometimes.

Good luck

[mr.ed]

How quick are Vegas books in banning you? Has anyone ever been banned from the LVH? In general will they just boot steam-chasers, or will they boot you if you are really good? Thanks!

[MonkeyF0cker]

The major hotels do not like sports betting.

The major hotels make money in their sportsbooks.

http://gaming.nv.gov/index.aspx?page=149

[mr.ed]

Of course they are making money....as they are +110....don't think anyone disputes that. The point is that casinos do way better per square with slot machines....sportsbook money pales in comparison to what goes on elsewhere. If casinos only made what sportsbooks make per square foot, they would have to shut down immediately. This is why it can be claimed that casinos hate sportsbooks.

[TheGoldenGoose]

John Avello

[MonkeyF0cker]

Of course they are making money....as they are +110....don't think anyone disputes that. The point is that casinos do way better per square with slot machines....sportsbook money pales in comparison to what goes on elsewhere. If casinos only made what sportsbooks make per square foot, they would have to shut down immediately. This is why it can be claimed that casinos hate sportsbooks.

Sure. If you want to (wrongly) assume that there is no diminishing return on adding more tables and slots.

That'd be pretty ignorant though.

If buffets make more money for a casino than steakhouses, should they just replace all the steakhouses with buffets?

[Hankwins]

That is not technically true, but the volume that has to be wagered at a decent property is REALLY HIGH. You can walk in and bet 5000 a game on NFL and bet 6 or 7 games on a sunday and it wont get you a room comp. MAYBE someone will sign you a 30 dollar coffee shop ticket depending on the property.

The major hotels do not like sports betting. They have sports betting because the other hotels do, and each property needs to offer what there competitors offer. The casino would prefer you were at a slot machine or in the blackjack pit. Not betting a sporting event that takes three hours and is in their eyes a flip of the coin. They would prefer you flipped a coin at a blackjack table 150 times in that same three hours. The likelihood of them getting your money increases dramatically in all other parts of the casino once you step out of the sports book and they know it.

They do not mind horse racing because they get a flat commission each bet and the race is 2 minutes then win or lose you bet again. That is why horse racing players get comped and sports do not.

this certainly makes sense a very high volume needed, what are comps for a daily dime bettor that has 200K a month in action and how do you personally know how this sort of thing works.

[jeffksu]

one should always use their players card..it makes copies of your wagers in case one loses their wallet or tickets and not have someone try and cash a found ticket..

also it earns you free plays, free food and the such..

[The Kraken]

Vegas is just as much about entertainment these days as they are about gambling. They made this fundamental switch towards entertainment quite some time ago and have benefited greatly from it. AC however did not and they're stuggling in a bad way.

[mr.ed]

Yes, you are correct, there would likley be diminshing returns on adding more slots (unless the place is poorly run), but that diminshed return would still not sink it the level of sportsbooks....the gap is that wide in most places.

[James D]

How quick are Vegas books in banning you? Has anyone ever been banned from the LVH? In general will they just boot steam-chasers, or will they boot you if you are really good? Thanks!

I have seen them limit players action in Caesars Palace and the Wynn. To the point where betting was 500 max across board. Not me of course

[James D]

John Avello

Why would John lie and say he lost money? To try and convince people he is an awful bookmaker? The house in sports sometimes loses money, thats just a fact. Of course long term they make money in the sports book ( usually) however compared to every other inch of the gaming floor the sportsbook is the hands down the weakest revenue generator.

The monthly income reports for the state of nevada come out about six weeks after the months end. The most recent revenue reports are from from Nov 2012.

Casinos won 782.6 million in november 2012
Sports books LOST 8.3 million ( 5.2 million was football wagering)

So for the entire month despite hundreds of millions wagered in sports the casinos LOST 8.3 million. This doesnt even factor in the costs to run the sports books statewide. Below is a link detailing the monthly report.

Is there any doubt the sports book is the weakest revenue producer?


Nevada casino revenues fall 11 percent in November - Yahoo! News

[James D]

this certainly makes sense a very high volume needed, what are comps for a daily dime bettor that has 200K a month in action and how do you personally know how this sort of thing works.

Some locals properties have rewards programs to accumulate comps through sports betting. 200k would certainly have some value, my estimate would be 700-1000 in comps MAX. However at the tourist properties it would mean very little. I am sure your 200k does not end up in one book because you chase the best numbers so i would say the benefit you can derive from your action is negligible. You certainly are not going to bet at one shop just to strengthen your comp rating at the expense of getting good numbers.
I personally know because when I bet in vegas I do a ton of volume and have for a long time.

[JakeLc]

Casinos have books in them because they don't want that customer going someplace else to make a bet and spending cash on food, slots,table games etc at some other casino.. It's about keeping you on their property

[James D]

Casinos have books in them because they don't want that customer going someplace else to make a bet and spending cash on food, slots,table games etc at some other casino.. It's about keeping you on their property

For many casinos this is 100% correct. Why else would casinos like the riviera have their sports book action outsourced? They dont want the risk or the trouble for such small returns, but more importantly they can not have you leaving the building. So they rent some space to an independent sports book.

[Fishhead]

Stations will limit and/or boot players.

[MonkeyF0cker]

For many casinos this is 100% correct. Why else would casinos like the riviera have their sports book action outsourced? They dont want the risk or the trouble for such small returns, but more importantly they can not have you leaving the building. So they rent some space to an independent sports book.

There are a number of reasons, but not having enough volume is probably the number one reason.

[James D]

There are a number of reasons, but not having enough volume is probably the number one reason.

The number one reason is not the lack of volume It is the lack of square and tourist volume . The small and low end casinos realize if they put up a weak number or two they are gonna get punched in the face every day by the local sharps till they figure out it is a bad line and they adjust it. The problem is the sharps who walk around town all day or in the current era sit in front of computers all day looking for these errors will pound them with no mercy until the mistake is corrected. The small and low end places do not have all the high end tourist square money that can usually balance the mistakes they put on the board like the fancy hotels have day in and day out. So whats a small betting shop going to do? They can not hire a top bookmaker because they do not have the budget. You gonna pay your linemaker more then your casino manager? Funny thing is even if they do or if they get lucky and have a young sharp guy working for them he is just going to build a reputation at their small place and then move one to a bigger place. That is what they all do, they advance in their careers just like people in every other profession. You show me a top nevada bookmaker and I will tell you the dump he started out at.


If they wanted the action they could have it. Many places went after it and realized it wasnt worth the trouble. The Imperial palace which is now the Quad in the 1990s was owned by a guy named Ralph. They wanted sports action and they made sports betting very attractive with all kinds of options and for sports it was absolutely a place the locals, square and sharp alike would stop into often, usually every day. It was run by Jay Kornegay and another guy right under him I can not recall the name was also really sharp. Jay now runs the sports book at the hilton superbook and is regarded as one of the top bookmakers in nevada. The IP had by far the largest superbowl prop menu for years and years. Many people credit Jay with the popularity explosion of the modern proposition bets on the Super Bowl. Then Jay left and if I remember right his # 2 took over, his name may have been jay also. Then that guy left and no one was there to steer the ship.

I could cite a bunch of examples like Nick B, one of the top three bookmakers in vegas when he was hired at the stratosphere to take on big local and sharp action. They didnt stop taking big sharp action and Nick didnt move on because the house won so much money they didnt know what to do with it. They took HUGE action for a while. They stopped taking huge action because they lost.


Just this past week John Avello the director of the Wynn Sportsbook stated they had a losing season in football. The most recent nevada gaming data which is for nov 2012 shows a 782+ million dollar gaming win yet a 8.3 million dollar gaming loss for the sports books statewide. I posted links early in the thread to articles detailing all this info. As you can see the mega resorts and the entire state of nevada sometimes for months at a time can not turn a profit and even take multi million dollar losses in sports. Do you think the small and low end casinos want to compete in this environment? They have a hard enough time getting people off the strip to play blackjack/craps/slots etc etc.


One last point, even some megaresorts don't want the trouble anymore. The venetian/palazzo no longer has its own book!! They outsource to cantor gaming. The venetian may be the most luxury hotel on the entire las vegas strip. The reason is even with the tourist action the locals and sharps were making it not worth it. They tried a variety of things to discourage sharps like not having their lines available on the internet on sites like vegas insider. But nothing worked. They couldnt lower their limits too drastically, you can not tell a guy who just lost 50k at the tables he has a 2k limit on the NBA or MLB. So they just said screw it and passed the risk off to cantor gaming. I promise you the venetian/palazzo keeps its action in slots,blackjack,roulette etc etc . Only sports they want no part of and outsource. They look like geniuses when the rest of nevada takes losses or books small insignificant wins in their sports books month after month.

[MonkeyF0cker]

That is an extremely long-winded explanation of a lack of volume despite how you're trying to qualify it.

A lack of volume allows a book to get hurt by a few players.

Casinos have had losing months in table games too. Sports isn't the only thing they sometimes get beat on.

[mr.ed]

When did casinos ever have losing months on table games? Industry-wide, I'll say never. Perhaps a whale beats an individual casino from time to time, but there is simply no way the Vegas industry can lose over the course of the month. I would suspect even a daily loss is extremly rare.

[Sawyer]

I heard about internet connection is blocked inside the sportsbooks, is it true? Can I connect internet inside a Vegas sportsbook from phone or laptop?

[skrtelfan]

casinos like the sportsbook but they want you to bet -6.5 when everywhere else has -6. if you know what you are doing they dont want you.