[existential]

by all means take kemp but we want wright or lagarus lol you can keep colon ....I want kemp gone but not that bad

you must be kidding. dodgers would trade kemp for colon straight up in a heartbeat. it's the mets who wouldn't take kemp

[Da Manster!]

^
Dodgers of the 60's won with Maury Wills as their offense.
More recent: Snakes won with Randy Johnson and Schilling.
What was their offense? Matt Williams?

oh, I agree...but unfortunately for the Bravos of the 90's they were in that 3% category of teams that had great pitching but couldn't win the big one (yes, they did in 1995 but should have had a helluva lot more with that staff)...Let me ask you this: How much did managing have to do with it?!...Yanks won like what four titles with Joe Torre?!...what if those Braves teams had him as their manager instead of Bobby Cox?!...would it have been any different in your opinion?!

[teaserpleaser]

you must be kidding. dodgers would trade kemp for colon straight up in a heartbeat. it's the mets who wouldn't take kemp

I don't usually reply to guys I don't know but here gos..... you're crazy if you think Dodgers want a 41 year old colon for kemp....not like kemp cant get right and become a stud again its his attitude not performance after getting moved from center that's going to get him run out of here. You make it sound like the Dodgers are low on pitching or something they are not. Dan haren is a bum other than that i'm pretty happy with the starting staff. kids these days.

[stevenash]

oh, I agree...but unfortunately for the Bravos of the 90's they were in that 3% category of teams that had great pitching but couldn't win the big one (yes, they did in 1995 but should have had a helluva lot more with that staff)...Let me ask you this: How much did managing have to do with it?!...Yanks won like what four titles with Joe Torre?!...what if those Braves teams had him as their manager instead of Bobby Cox?!...would it have been any different in your opinion?!

I will answer your question last.

I remember the quote, I forgot who is attributed to it, either Sparky Anderson, or Earl Weaver who said "a good manager is worth at most five extra wins a season.

In my lifetime, I have never seen a flawless manager, for instance, Torre would lean too heavy on the bullpen.
Well Torre had Mo, but he burnt out his set up guys. But Torre was great in so many ways, he shielded his men from all the NYC distractions, told George, you give me the bullshit, lay off of my guys.

Earl Weaver relied too much on the 3 run bomb, that was his philosopy, play for the big inning.
In a way he's right, stats show a team the wins a ball game more times than not scores more runs in one inning than the losing team scores all game. That percentil is in the mid 60's.

Now the opposite of Weaver was who historians tell me, and from the books I read, was John McCraw, who most say was the greatest manager of all time.

They say he recognized the dead ball, and taught, and played small ball. McCraw loved to hit and run, and that's the style I love the best myself.

In a perfect world, the perfect lineup would be a hight OBA guy with wheels leading off.

If he gets on, 1B has to hold him to the bag, that's why I want the best stick man I could possibly have in the two hole. You get a speed demon on base, with a guy who can handle the bat, a contact guy, my goodness, the possibilites are endless. a) hit and run - man in motion, first baseman by the bag, you got yourself a hole between first and second the size of Texas, the stick man, the best in the game right now at shooting the ball that way is Hunter Pence, (Jeter in his prime was amazing at that) can easily single. First and third, no outs. You want your power guys 3-4-5, or if you got a good OBA guy with a little pop, bat him five, and put the power guys six.

Small ball is where it's at, I want OBA guys. Can't score a run, if you can't get on base.
John McCraw knew that 100 years ago, no computer, no eye in the sky, no 1000 page notebooks, he 'got it' probably the first ever who 'got it'

You hear how great Joe McCarthy was, but he had Gehrig, Ruth, Murderers Row, so he played the long ball, but when you get right down to it, he was a push button manager, which was LaRussa's style with Mac and Canseco.

Connie Mack, books say he was the smartest manager ever.
See all this shifting going on today, Mack was the first to reposition players during the course of the game, and that was 100 years ago, with teams not as talented as NY with Ruth, because the A's had little money. But Mack was a genius and worked with what he had, whic wasn't much.

Modern day era:

Torre knew how to 'manage' each and every player in the dugout, who to give it to hard, who to use the kid glove approach on, the best ever at managing the 'modern stars'

LaRussa, first ever to bring the computer into the game. He was doing the computer stats while Billy Beane was failing to make the Mets squad, Billy-ball came five years later after LaRussa was doing the computer thing. But was a push button manager when you get right down to it.

Sparky, won rings as a manager in both leagues.
He'll be remembered as the guy who first started using the 'bridge' to the closer, and forever changed the way the bullpen was used. Pretty much ended the 4 man rotation.
His Tiger teams had four guys who could close, or set up, each one could pitch 6th, 7th, 8th, 9th.

Can you name them?

Eastwick did the bulk of the closing, Will McEneary, was the co-closer so to speak, he was 8th inning
guy, closer when Rawley Eastwick was not available, then there was Pedro Borbon, and Clay Carol, and Pedro Borbon, one of the first to go to a five man rotation, four man rotation was still the style, Sparky killed that.
Starters went half the game, bull pen went second half, but would not pull a starter if he was dealing, he'd let then go the whole nine yards.

Bobby Cox was your guy huh?
Here's the thing with Cox, loved his in your face, I go to war for my team attitude.
I'm a baseball fan first, Yankee fan second, and with all due respect, could not stand the Braves, I'm a Yankee fan for the love of God.

One Brave who I absolutly loved was Dale Murphy, from 1982-1986 had a five year run as great as anybody.
Hit 36 homers one year, few years actually, but one seaon he hit 36, 12 to right, 12 to center, 12 to left.
But I digress.

No, things probably would not be different, Cox was a baseball mind great, genius if you want to take it that far.
Took a Brave team from last place, not just any Braves team, those teams were brutal right before the came, and almost won it all the next season. Those Braves teams before Cox were like SD Padres now.
(don't forget, he was a real good GM too)

Did the same again with the Blue Jays, you take two stinking up the joint laughing stocks, turn them into winners overnight, you know something.

And Cox did, he knew tactics well, he also, like I said went to war for his guys, never threw any of his guys under the bus, never spoke poor of his guys in public, he was always consistent, and he knew how to pick a player up....
Know where he learned that? From a Brave who won a batting title.

Joe Torre.

No, anybody besides Cox doesn't do what he did there.

[whtsox13]

^
Dodgers of the 60's won with Maury Wills as their offense.
More recent: Snakes won with Randy Johnson and Schilling.
What was their offense? Matt Williams?

Luis Gonzalez with 57 dingers probably helped.

[stevenash]

Luis Gonzalez with 57 dingers probably helped.

Totally forgot about Gonzo, and how could I?
Great nab there Sox.

Speaking of Chi-Sox, I remember Buehrle getting a save in the WS.
You guys had sneaky bat, Dye, I think Everett had a nice series......

[Da Manster!]

Excellent response, Nasher!.......Yeah, I was always hard on Bobby Cox as a Braves fan because I felt like he was the Marty Schottenheimer of MLB...always choking in the postseason....but those Braves teams from the 80's (when we were losing 100 games a year) were at least fun to watch...no damn pitching whatsoever but a damn good offense with Claudell Washington, Dale Murphy, Bob Horner, Glen Hubbard, Chris Chambliss, etc!...Most games were like 8 - 6 and that was the era of dominant pitching...hence why fulton county stadium was referred and nicknamed as the launching pad!....and yes, Dale Murphy was and is my favorite player of all-time...only player to win back-to-back MVP's until Barry Bonds (don't get me started on that cheater!) did it....He finished with the 398 homers, won 5 straight gold gloves, and did it cleanly and the right way without steroids...it's a damn shame he couldn't play for a contender...but getting back to the 90's teams, I just couldn't figure out why a brilliant manager like Cox only won one world title with three HOF pitchers and arguably the greatest rotation in the history of the game!...it's mind boggling!...that is why I think of what the geniuses of that era like Torre, LaRussa, Anderson, etc. would have done with that Braves squad...but yes, Bobby Cox and GM John Shuerholz deserve a lot of credit for taking a perennial last place team and turning them into a dominant dynasty type of squad...of'course having Ted Turner as the owner greatly helped matters as he opened up his wallet and was determined to make the Braves into a winning club.

[stevenash]

^
Thing about the Braves brass was it was uncanny how they dumped pitching prospects that were supposed to be hot.
It was uncanny the way the Braves scouts, front office were like "this guy isn't going to pan out" and trade them while they could get something good.

[konck]

I will answer your question last.

I remember the quote, I forgot who is attributed to it, either Sparky Anderson, or Earl Weaver who said "a good manager is worth at most five extra wins a season.

In my lifetime, I have never seen a flawless manager, for instance, Torre would lean too heavy on the bullpen.
Well Torre had Mo, but he burnt out his set up guys. But Torre was great in so many ways, he shielded his men from all the NYC distractions, told George, you give me the bullshit, lay off of my guys.

Earl Weaver relied too much on the 3 run bomb, that was his philosopy, play for the big inning.
In a way he's right, stats show a team the wins a ball game more times than not scores more runs in one inning than the losing team scores all game. That percentil is in the mid 60's.

Now the opposite of Weaver was who historians tell me, and from the books I read, was John McCraw, who most say was the greatest manager of all time.

They say he recognized the dead ball, and taught, and played small ball. McCraw loved to hit and run, and that's the style I love the best myself.

In a perfect world, the perfect lineup would be a hight OBA guy with wheels leading off.

If he gets on, 1B has to hold him to the bag, that's why I want the best stick man I could possibly have in the two hole. You get a speed demon on base, with a guy who can handle the bat, a contact guy, my goodness, the possibilites are endless. a) hit and run - man in motion, first baseman by the bag, you got yourself a hole between first and second the size of Texas, the stick man, the best in the game right now at shooting the ball that way is Hunter Pence, (Jeter in his prime was amazing at that) can easily single. First and third, no outs. You want your power guys 3-4-5, or if you got a good OBA guy with a little pop, bat him five, and put the power guys six.

Small ball is where it's at, I want OBA guys. Can't score a run, if you can't get on base.
John McCraw knew that 100 years ago, no computer, no eye in the sky, no 1000 page notebooks, he 'got it' probably the first ever who 'got it'

You hear how great Joe McCarthy was, but he had Gehrig, Ruth, Murderers Row, so he played the long ball, but when you get right down to it, he was a push button manager, which was LaRussa's style with Mac and Canseco.

Connie Mack, books say he was the smartest manager ever.
See all this shifting going on today, Mack was the first to reposition players during the course of the game, and that was 100 years ago, with teams not as talented as NY with Ruth, because the A's had little money. But Mack was a genius and worked with what he had, whic wasn't much.

Modern day era:

Torre knew how to 'manage' each and every player in the dugout, who to give it to hard, who to use the kid glove approach on, the best ever at managing the 'modern stars'

LaRussa, first ever to bring the computer into the game. He was doing the computer stats while Billy Beane was failing to make the Mets squad, Billy-ball came five years later after LaRussa was doing the computer thing. But was a push button manager when you get right down to it.

Sparky, won rings as a manager in both leagues.
He'll be remembered as the guy who first started using the 'bridge' to the closer, and forever changed the way the bullpen was used. Pretty much ended the 4 man rotation.
His Tiger teams had four guys who could close, or set up, each one could pitch 6th, 7th, 8th, 9th.

Can you name them?

Eastwick did the bulk of the closing, Will McEneary, was the co-closer so to speak, he was 8th inning
guy, closer when Rawley Eastwick was not available, then there was Pedro Borbon, and Clay Carol, and Pedro Borbon, one of the first to go to a five man rotation, four man rotation was still the style, Sparky killed that.
Starters went half the game, bull pen went second half, but would not pull a starter if he was dealing, he'd let then go the whole nine yards.

Bobby Cox was your guy huh?
Here's the thing with Cox, loved his in your face, I go to war for my team attitude.
I'm a baseball fan first, Yankee fan second, and with all due respect, could not stand the Braves, I'm a Yankee fan for the love of God.

One Brave who I absolutly loved was Dale Murphy, from 1982-1986 had a five year run as great as anybody.
Hit 36 homers one year, few years actually, but one seaon he hit 36, 12 to right, 12 to center, 12 to left.
But I digress.

No, things probably would not be different, Cox was a baseball mind great, genius if you want to take it that far.
Took a Brave team from last place, not just any Braves team, those teams were brutal right before the came, and almost won it all the next season. Those Braves teams before Cox were like SD Padres now.
(don't forget, he was a real good GM too)

Did the same again with the Blue Jays, you take two stinking up the joint laughing stocks, turn them into winners overnight, you know something.

And Cox did, he knew tactics well, he also, like I said went to war for his guys, never threw any of his guys under the bus, never spoke poor of his guys in public, he was always consistent, and he knew how to pick a player up....
Know where he learned that? From a Brave who won a batting title.

Joe Torre.

No, anybody besides Cox doesn't do what he did there.

I can see the quote about a GOOD manager
But how much can a bad manager hurt I think that number could be as high as 15
there are guys in the dugouts that should be on bread lines some where
I honestly believe...... and I will watch the Mets almost every game Collins cost up to 15 a year
Horrible judge of talent.....Does not understand how to use a BP
Either a puppet for the front office or plain stubborn
Will play aging vets over upcoming talent because he believes resumes are strong even if he has to go back 5 yrs
Guy is a total wash out plus he is gay

[stevenash]

My all time favorite stat, and I'm a numbers fanatic, is Steve Carlton, in 1972 won 27 games for a dead last Phillies team that won 59 games and lost 97.

Chew on this, Carlton won over 45 percent of their games.
Chew on this, Cartlon had 30 complete games that season.
30 times Carlton finished what he stated, today's pitchers make 35 maximum starts, and 35 is rare.

And one last chew on this:
Steve Carlton, while pitching for a 100 game loser (almost) won the Cy-Young award, unanimously.
All 24 votes.

[stevenash]

@ Konck
I think it's because Collins salary is dirt cheap

[Simon Gruber]

@ Konck
I think it's because Collins salary is dirt cheap

His salary is above average for MLB managers and well above average compared to managers who have no recent success.

[stevenash]

His salary is above average for MLB managers and well above average compared to managers who have no recent success.

I don't have a list, but I thoght he was paid like a rook.

[konck]

@ Konck
I think it's because Collins salary is dirt cheap

No one including the GM for the mets makes much one of the lowest paid front offices in mlb who knows why
Probably the Wilponzi's stashing the money

[konck]

His salary is above average for MLB managers and well above average compared to managers who have no recent success.

Collins makes just a hair over 1 mill I dont think that is avg for mlb
I think thats a toilet salary for a toilet manager

[konck]

by all means take kemp but we want wright or lagarus lol you can keep colon ....I want kemp gone but not that bad

LOL Kemp is an over paid 265 hitter now for the 2nd year in a row also throw in the whining about playing CF
like we would give up one of the top 3 we have with Colon ....do you watch MLB or just dream?