[Broke Homey]

This scenario was brought up in another poker forum i belonged to a while back. It was set up as a poll, but i cant figure out how to do that here. I am going to change up the original wording some, since the original Q/A, went in this direction.

You are at your first large buy in MTT, lets make it the WSOP main event and level 1 blinds, 9 handed . A dozen hands or so have played out and you already realize that you have 2 uber lags at the table, 3 dead money fish, 1 abc level 1 thinker, and yourself and 3 others seem to be solid. The player to your left is a older guy, who has 2 times already not intentionally exposed his hole cards to you, while looking during his turn. Both times after the hand you told him and he thanked you.

This happens a few hands later. Cards are dealt and uber lag raises UTG 4x the bb. Its folded to you in the cut off and you have AK spades suited and you re raise to 11x the bb, and on the button is the old man who exposes to you AQ hearts suited and ships it all in! The uber folds, and its your turn, knowing for a fact that your a 70/25/5 favorite do you call off for your tournament life during round 1? Or wait for another spot?

You dont get edges like 70/25/5 to often, but is this an edge or cheating? Do you call off with 5 cards to come or fold and wait for another spot?

Discuss........

[pboozer57]

This scenario was brought up in another poker forum i belonged to a while back. It was set up as a poll, but i cant figure out how to do that here. I am going to change up the original wording some, since the original Q/A, went in this direction.

You are at your first large buy in MTT, lets make it the WSOP main event and level 1 blinds, 9 handed . A dozen hands or so have played out and you already realize that you have 2 uber lags at the table, 3 dead money fish, 1 abc level 1 thinker, and yourself and 3 others seem to be solid. The player to your left is a older guy, who has 2 times already not intentionally exposed his hole cards to you, while looking during his turn. Both times after the hand you told him and he thanked you.

This happens a few hands later. Cards are dealt and uber lag raises UTG 4x the bb. Its folded to you in the cut off and you have AK spades suited and you re raise to 11x the bb, and on the button is the old man who exposes to you AQ hearts suited and ships it all in! The uber folds, and its your turn, knowing for a fact that your a 80/20 favorite do you call off for your tournament life during round 1? Or wait for another spot?

You dont get edges like 80/20 to often, but is this an edge or cheating? Do you call off with 5 cards to come or fold and wait for another spot?

Discuss........

Personally...I would tell him once again that I fold and turn over my cards and tell that jackass that I can see his. I believe in Karma. No need to have any advantage in something like that. Poker and Golf are accountability sports. Golfers are playing for huge amounts of money and they will call a penalty on themselves when no one is looking. Well they believe someone is looking, themselves! Never trade your pride and honesty to become a piece of shit. No amount of money is worth it and and no poker tournament is worth it either.

[pboozer57]

Also you could bring the tournament director over to declare his hand dead while getting back your 11x raise. Since you saw his cards the game has been altered therefore the tournament director would declare a ruling. The only ruling I see fit is declaring the hands dead while returning action.

[ChuckyTheGoat]

I think you call the all-in. I'm all for sportsmanship. In fact, I've told dealer/player many times "Hey, I'm not looking, but you're flashing your cards to me."

1st warning is courtesy. 2nd warning is optional. After that, all is fair-game.

[astro61200]

Fold because he's either going to flop trips or go runner runner straight/flush

..or maybe I've been playing SBR Poker too much

[daneblazer]

It's on the guy to cover his cards. You already warned him, it's not your responsibility to keep holding his hand.

The problem with this scenario is that you aren't 80/20. You're more like 70/25/5

In a tournament this big and of this magnitude, both players in the pool and $ on the line, I'm not sure putting in all on the line 12 hands in is the thing to do even if you know you're a 70% favorite. Maybe if you're a been there done that player like Ivey or Hellmuth and 10k is just another buy in for you. I'm a bit poker rusty though...

[Broke Homey]

It's on the guy to cover his cards. You already warned him, it's not your responsibility to keep holding his hand.

The problem with this scenario is that you aren't 80/20. You're more like 70/25/5

In a tournament this big and of this magnitude, both players in the pool and $ on the line, I'm not sure putting in all on the line 12 hands in is the thing to do even if you know you're a 70% favorite. Maybe if you're a been there done that player like Ivey or Hellmuth and 10k is just another buy in for you. I'm a bit poker rusty though...

You are right...i changed it

[astro61200]

My philosophy for MTTs is the same as golf: you can't win it in the first round, but you can lose it.

However, the correct move would be to call, who cares if you saw his cards if it's his fault? In theory, if you are too worried about calling as a massive favorite because of a high buy in then you shouldn't be playing in it in the first place. I say in theory, because, how many people really follow that advice? Not many.

[daneblazer]

My philosophy for MTTs is the same as golf: you can't win it in the first round, but you can lose it.

However, the correct move would be to call, who cares if you saw his cards if it's his fault? In theory, if you are too worried about calling as a massive favorite because of a high buy in then you shouldn't be playing in it in the first place. I say in theory, because, how many people really follow that advice? Not many.

It's not really the buy in as much as it is calling for stacks so early. You aren't really a massive favorite. People call 55/45 situations coin flip and in reality this is only about 15% more of a fave from a "coin flip". It's being 12 hands in, plus the 25% threat of elimination vs the 75% chips/equity you gain, along with the big buy that I don't know how to weight. There is no fold equity. He doesn't have much in the pot. In a vacuum, call away. I think you have to at least stop and think about this one though.

[pboozer57]

Well I wouldn't want to play golf with some of you. Actually it is your responsibility if you have ethics for the game. I'm sure if we had a bet you would kick the ball to gain an edge so your putt would be closer. It's as simple as that. Cheating! Not how many warnings you can justify, not how big the tournament is or how big of a favorite you are when you know his hand. The deal is ethics in the game. You aren't allowed to show your whole cards in this situation at all. Regardless if its done on purpose or not. Regardless on how many times it has happened. The hand would be killed. Forget about holding AK you hold AA does it really make a difference? You being a bigger favorite helps you justify the situation even more? Or it being early in the tournament? Am I missing something here?

[mikejamm]

You're an idiot if you don't call. Especially after you so "kindly" let him know. I can't count the tournaments I've played in where some nit, drunk, dumb or otherwise has flashed his hole cards. A tell is a tell, no matter how the fuk it comes to you. Our man Astro is spot on, "if you are too worried about calling as a massive favorite because of a high buy in then you shouldn't be playing in it in the first place.

[daneblazer]

If we're so worried about ethics and we know the guy has a tendency to expose his cards, quit looking at his cards.

[pboozer57]

Well seems to be going in a different direction all together...

A) if he is showing that open you wouldn't be the only one to see his cards at the table.
B) if you are looking to see him expose his cards you are already cheating anyways.

[daneblazer]

Two things going on

1. Do you think seeing his cards is ethical

I'd have no problem calling the floor to get my 11bb back if that's the case


if not...

Its the guys responsibility to cover them.

2. Do you put elimination on the line as a 70% fave the first few hands of the tournament? I'm a little torn on that one...esp if the guy keeps showing you his cards

[pboozer57]

You're an idiot if you don't call. Especially after you so "kindly" let him know. I can't count the tournaments I've played in where some nit, drunk, dumb or otherwise has flashed his hole cards. A tell is a tell, no matter how the fuk it comes to you. Our man Astro is spot on, "if you are too worried about calling as a massive favorite because of a high buy in then you shouldn't be playing in it in the first place.

A tell isn't knowing someones hole cards before action is on you. Not sure what tournaments you're playing in but if the drunk ass says "all in" and flips over his cards before the action is on you the hand is dead. Nit, drunk and dumb have no point at all. These are rules.

[pboozer57]

Wow can't believe what I'm reading....

A TELL IS A TELL...Looking for tells is angle shooting trying to read someones actual whole cards? In a tournament or ring game you can get your ass beat trying to do this and flat out thrown and and DQ'd. I've seen it first hand and when it happened the dude who was trying to look at the guys actual hole cards wasn't being defended by others at the table. It was absolute BS for what the guy was trying to do. So if Grandpa who has the shakes can't keep his hands still enough to where you can't see his cards. You're the dude looking at them? Nice tell bro!!

[astro61200]

If he keeps showing the cards then are you just going to call the floor guy over every hand? Never get a hand in because he keeps showing?

At some point the idiot who can't keep his cards hidden has to take responsibility for his own actions. If you made him aware of it twice and he continues to do it then it's his own fault. This isn't kindergarten class.

There is an old say: "A fool and his money are soon parted."

[pboozer57]

If he keeps showing the cards then are you just going to call the floor guy over every hand? Never get a hand in because he keeps showing?

At some point the idiot who can't keep his cards hidden has to take responsibility for his own actions. If you made him aware of it twice and he continues to do it then it's his own fault. This isn't kindergarten class.

There is an old say: "A fool and his money are soon parted."

Actually i've seen this happen in a tourney because of alcohol and yes you can call the floor over. If someone is doing this over and over they can be kicked out of the game completely. It all depends on the tournament director and how far they let this go on for. The tourney I was in they kicked him out and he blinded out. I mean I've kind of blown this out of proportion because this is always case by case. Poker players are pretty dame respectful and honest for the most part which shocks a lot of people, but they are. Wants you lose the integrity of the game you have no game. It just comes down to doing the right thing. I mean to let a sucker keep his money is one thing. To know someones hole cards is another.

[Broke Homey]

Forget the buy in....Your bank roll accommodates this high of a buy in.

I am along the thinking with Boozer, call the director and get the hand called dead and get my bets back. Even though i know i am a favorite, there is a huge difference in shoving with AK and calling off, Especially so early in a tournament. Without a made hand here of AA or maybe KK i fold, whether seeing his hole cards or not. With 5 cards to come maybe it holds, but there's a lot of room for you to be felted also.

I also see it as a form of cheating, just my opinion though. I see it the same as online players with multiple accounts in MTT or cash games, or 6/7 of the 9 players on skype. Some see that as edges also, since the poker room security hasnt picked up on it yet.

Everyone's opinion is valid and i dont think there is a right or wrong answer. Also what you say here could be different if sitting in that position also.

[daneblazer]

Who still has their moral compass if this happens on the bubble and you're short stacked? Let's say old guy has you covered by a lot and is in no danger of elimination.

even better you won your ticket in a satellite and this $ is a lot for you. Do you throw it away due to someone elses incompetence?

[USCPHILLYGUY]

you can tel pboozer is a live tourney player and a stand up guy........I'd play a round of golf with you anytime brother!

[JAKEPEAVY21]

snap call

not my problem if dude not protecting his cards

I try NOT to look when someone next to me is exposing their cards but if they continue to do it, that's their issue

[JAKEPEAVY21]

My philosophy for MTTs is the same as golf: you can't win it in the first round, but you can lose it.

However, the correct move would be to call, who cares if you saw his cards if it's his fault? In theory, if you are too worried about calling as a massive favorite because of a high buy in then you shouldn't be playing in it in the first place. I say in theory, because, how many people really follow that advice? Not many.

agreed

[BigOrange]

Yep Snap call and yell Wheeeeeeeeeeeee.

If you don't have the balls to put your money in ahead, you have no business playing!