[The Giant]

I don't get it.

This is as much as gambling as making a bet on a game, or playing online poker, I don't get the reasoning behind it.

When we registered for the Beat The Prick contest, we had to sign up at Draft Kings. Anyway, after doing that, I ended up checking out their site. They even except money through PayPal, I couldn't believe it. I've already given them $900 (you're welcome, SBR), and have actually made a little money. They gorge you like hell with their vig on heads-up matches, but it's kind of fun. It's actually much more exhausting than betting on a game. Way more time-consuming.

But back to my original point, how is this stuff legal?

Also, does anyone else play over there? I could use some tips.

[greenhippo]

Giant is giant sharp. I have no idea.

[The Giant]

Giant is giant sharp. I have no idea.

It just makes no sense. It's absolute gambling. There is no skill involved knowing whether Miguel Cabrera will hit a homerun on any given day. He might, he might not. Totally random.

And all these sites take PayPal. It's like living in a normal country.

[JayLA]

http://www.forbes.com/sites/chrissmi...ball-be-legal/

We should start by clarifying that it is currently legal to bet on fantasy sports. The Unlawful Internet Gambling and Enforcement Act of 2006 (UIGEA), which establishes the legal guidelines for online gambling, carves out a safe haven for any fantasy or simulation sports game that:

has an outcome that reflects the relative knowledge of the participants, or their skill at physical reaction or physical manipulation (but not chance), and, in the case of a fantasy or simulation sports game, has an outcome that is determined predominantly by accumulated statistical results of sporting events…


In other words, fantasy sports are considered games of skill – not chance – if they can be won by successfully utilizing superior knowledge of the players involved. The Act adds that the game in question cannot have a prize that is determined by the number of players or amounts paid (think betting odds on game picks), but rather is established in advance of the game’s start.

But does it actually make sense for fantasy football to be considered a game of skill?

Good question. It does fall in that grey area. Only a matter of time before the government takes it away from us for our own good

[The Giant]

http://www.forbes.com/sites/chrissmi...ball-be-legal/



Good question. It does fall in that grey area. Only a matter of time before the government takes it away from us for our own good

Thanks for the article, Jay. Interesting read.

I would argue that there is way more skill in poker than fantasy sports, yet that's illegal.

Do you play fantasy sports?

[BigDeem5]

Giant sharp post.

Fantasy sports all luck

[billysink]

It just makes no sense. It's absolute gambling. There is no skill involved knowing whether Miguel Cabrera will hit a homerun on any given day. He might, he might not. Totally random.

And all these sites take PayPal. It's like living in a normal country.

Not true.

If you are a pro with this

http://www.brooksbaseball.net/pfxVB/pfx.php

And this

http://www.fangraphs.com/leaders.asp...lter=&players=

You can do some serious damage. Knowing what a pitcher is going to throw and knowing how well any batter hits that pitch is far more ammo than lots who play there. Just grab any pitcher's game log from MLB or ESPN pitching probables and get the knowledge

[JayLA]

I have played before. Never really liked it, just did it for fun with some friends. Whenever I go to bars to watch games I end up in a conversation about fantasy sports. People ask me why I want a certain game on and why every play affects me...ask if I'm a fan or if I play fantasy lol

It's a bit tedious to me, I have enough trouble following every team as is.

[greenhippo]

How is betting on sports any less skill then? The fukk is that shit.

[billysink]

I have played before. Never really liked it, just did it for fun with some friends. Whenever I go to bars to watch games I end up in a conversation about fantasy sports. People ask me why I want a certain game on and why every play affects me...ask if I'm a fan or if I play fantasy lol

It's a bit tedious to me, I have enough trouble following every team as is.

The acute knowledge gained from a fantasy approach pays off much better in the bigger picture.

[The Giant]

Not true.

If you are a pro with this

http://www.brooksbaseball.net/pfxVB/pfx.php

And this

http://www.fangraphs.com/leaders.asp...lter=&players=

You can do some serious damage. Knowing what a pitcher is going to throw and knowing how well any batter hits that pitch is far more ammo than lots who play there. Just grab any pitcher's game log from MLB or ESPN pitching probables and get the knowledge

I agree that there is some skill involved, but there is also luck. Just like in poker. That's why I don't understand how they can legalize one, but not the other.

Do you play fantasy sports, Billy?

[The Giant]

I have played before. Never really liked it, just did it for fun with some friends. Whenever I go to bars to watch games I end up in a conversation about fantasy sports. People ask me why I want a certain game on and why every play affects me...ask if I'm a fan or if I play fantasy lol

It's a bit tedious to me, I have enough trouble following every team as is.

It's definitely tedious.

Rooting for guys.

Rooting against other guys.

Gambling on games is way easier, and much less time-consuming. And it's also cheaper.

On Draft Kings, if you play someone heads up for the day..... check this out:
You each put up $109, and the payback is $200.
Basically you're risking $109 to win $91. It's outright thievery. Better off betting on a game where you can risk $110 to win $100, or even better in some cases.

[billysink]

I agree that there is some skill involved, but there is also luck. Just like in poker. That's why I don't understand how they can legalize one, but not the other.

Do you play fantasy sports, Billy?

No. They became the "in" thing to do long, long after my handicapping endeavors occupied most of my time. I do use the information often. As a matter of fact I build my game charts from those two sites for the most part. The information is quite accurate and much, much better than the daily batter vs. pitcher information. Also allows you to see when a pitcher is trending poorly, a huge advantage to breaking down a number.

[billysink]

It's definitely tedious.

Rooting for guys.

Rooting against other guys.

Gambling on games is way easier, and much less time-consuming. And it's also cheaper.

On Draft Kings, if you play someone heads up for the day..... check this out:
You each put up $109, and the payback is $200.
Basically you're risking $109 to win $91. It's outright thievery. Better off betting on a game where you can risk $110 to win $100, or even better in some cases.

Wow. Thievery is understated, there is your answer to why it is legal right there. The kids playing that have no concept of vig/value at all nor do they probably care.

[Kindred]

The leagues (NFL, MLB, ect) got a carve out for fantasy and supported UIGEA so that they could have a monopoly on sports betting. They thought that anyone using fantasy stats had to pay them a royalties because it's copyrighted. They were wrong, stats are public domain or some legal shit and the leagues get nothing..but the carve out for fantasy being a skill game and not banned by UIGEA still stands. Daily fantasy wasn't around back then, but uses the same bullshit "skill" vs. gambling carve out that the NFL and the other pro leagues lobbied for, so you can thank the NFL for being able to lose the rent money playing daily fantasy but not being able to bet on a team.

If you have money you can write your own laws and it's not called bribery because of middlemen aka lobbyists.

[The Giant]

No. They became the "in" thing to do long, long after my handicapping endeavors occupied most of my time. I do use the information often. As a matter of fact I build my game charts from those two sites for the most part. The information is quite accurate and much, much better than the daily batter vs. pitcher information. Also allows you to see when a pitcher is trending poorly, a huge advantage to breaking down a number.

Good stuff.

I'm the same way, I spend all my free time gambling, didn't think taking on a new endeavor was worth it.

Wow. Thievery is understated, there is your answer to why it is legal right there. The kids playing that have no concept of vig/value at all nor do they probably care.

It's a total ripoff. They even mention somewhere on the site that you pay less of a percentage the higher your games are. But their highest limit is still more than 10% juice. It's a racket.

The leagues (NFL, MLB, ect) got a carve out for fantasy and supported UIGEA so that they could have a monopoly on sports betting. They thought that anyone using fantasy stats had to pay them a royalties because it's copyrighted. They were wrong, stats are public domain or some legal shit and the leagues get nothing..but the carve out for fantasy being a skill game and not banned by UIGEA still stands. Daily fantasy wasn't around back then, but uses the same bullshit "skill" vs. gambling carve out that the NFL and the other pro leagues lobbied for, so you can thank the NFL for being able to lose the rent money playing daily fantasy but not being able to bet on a team.

If you have money you can write your own laws and it's not called bribery because of middlemen aka lobbyists.

Interesting stuff.

I've never even heard of daily fantasy before joining this site. How long have they had games like this?

[tblues2005]

The leagues (NFL, MLB, ect) got a carve out for fantasy and supported UIGEA so that they could have a monopoly on sports betting. They thought that anyone using fantasy stats had to pay them a royalties because it's copyrighted. They were wrong, stats are public domain or some legal shit and the leagues get nothing..but the carve out for fantasy being a skill game and not banned by UIGEA still stands. Daily fantasy wasn't around back then, but uses the same bullshit "skill" vs. gambling carve out that the NFL and the other pro leagues lobbied for, so you can thank the NFL for being able to lose the rent money playing daily fantasy but not being able to bet on a team.

If you have money you can write your own laws and it's not called bribery because of middlemen aka lobbyists.

Your right big time. I don't they expected daily fantasy games at all.

Guys it really depends on what happens in the Supreme Court in the New Jersey case on what will happen with sports betting. If New Jersey wins which I think is possible then there's going to be plenty states will be board I have been hearing that want to have that in their state. I have heard from people Iowa, Mississippi, Illinois and Louisiana is interested and looking at this closely. You may see Nevada pass it to make it legal nationwide if that happens to do it online. It will open up revenue for all these states if this happens.

[Ghenghis Kahn]

why are you trying to be logical pal?

everything is legal until some rich fukk or some rich fukks don't want it to be legal...

[ttwarrior1]

a certain gambling forum owned a fantasy site at one time and it got sold

You should go check out the contest where one guy had over 90 lineups in one contest

[TheMoneyShot]

Good Post Giant. There's 2 ways I look at this. Well... ok... maybe 3 ways.

1. If they are considering fantasy legal... this could open up a small door for sports wagering legalized. Long shot... yes I know. But could.

2. Someone (the authority) basically overlooked the true idea of what "fantasy" is... had no clue it's basically a form of gambling. This might be the last year of fantasy funded through PayPal.

3. This may sound like 2... but this is my opinion. Fantasy sports isn't any different than sports wagering. So technically it will be illegal soon enough. Gambling is gambling... period. You can't just start shooting dice and make wagers... and consider it legal. If you put up money... to win money in return... it's gambling. It's illegal unless regulated. We all know fantasy sports isn't regulated. Therefore... it was clearly overlooked or the LAW hasn't stepped in yet to stop it.

[The Giant]

a certain gambling forum owned a fantasy site at one time and it got sold

You should go check out the contest where one guy had over 90 lineups in one contest

Is the guy with 90 lineups morbidly obese, by chance?

Good Post Giant. There's 2 ways I look at this. Well... ok... maybe 3 ways.

1. If they are considering fantasy legal... this could open up a small door for sports wagering legalized. Long shot... yes I know. But could.

2. Someone (the authority) basically overlooked the true idea of what "fantasy" is... had no clue it's basically a form of gambling. This might be the last year of fantasy funded through PayPal.

3. This may sound like 2... but this is my opinion. Fantasy sports isn't any different than sports wagering. So technically it will be illegal soon enough. Gambling is gambling... period. You can't just start shooting dice and make wagers... and consider it legal. If you put up money... to win money in return... it's gambling. It's illegal unless regulated. We all know fantasy sports isn't regulated. Therefore... it was clearly overlooked or the LAW hasn't stepped in yet to stop it.

#1. I don't think sports gambling will ever be legalized here.

#2. I'm not exactly sure it's been overlooked, they may have just found a loophole. These daily contests are absolute forms of gambling. I don't see how anyone can argue that. I'm curious how long they've been going on, but fantasy sports in general have been legal for ages. The fact it can be done through PayPal is mind-boggling to me.

#3. Meh, we're just repeating ourselves now, Money! Come on!

[ttwarrior1]

Recently, Naapstermaan took down the $125,000 grand prize of the Midsummer Classic on Draft Kings.

It only took him a mere 91 entries to beat over 2200 other entrants for the first place prize in this Draft Kings DFS event, a $500,000 guaranteed prize pool behemoth of a contest. I listened just prior to the contest as daily fantasy sports pros took to their live streams to talk about how “great” this is for the industry, and how “great” it would be for a regular to win it. It is not surprising that anyone benefiting from a situation will apply the label of “great” to it. Now I realize in writing this article, I am going to come off as a jealous sore loser, and quite frankly if that is what you want to think, so be it.

It does not change the truth.

When it comes to the biggest sites in the daily fantasy sports industry, there is a pride that is taken in “bringing in fresh blood.” In fact, Fan Duel loves to boast about their aggressive networking that leads to more new users than any other DFS site. This self-proclaimed title is and will continue to be in jeopardy however, as sites like Draft Kings and FanThrowdown have acquired major marketing capital to become competitors on the same level. These sites are of course doing this for us, to make games “softer” and easier to beat, as well as making games bigger for a shot at higher prizes.

And if you believe that, you probably also believe that no one in baseball uses steroids.

Daily Fantasy SportsAs is common in growing industries, these big DFS sites have positioned themselves to milk the hell out of a growing market, trying to grow as big and as fast as possible to separate themselves from the pack under the pretense that cornering the market will allow them to own the market. In particular, Draft Kings has tried to carve out a niche for themselves by being one of the few sites to not only allow single-team stacking, but to allow absurd numbers of entries (max entries in the Midsummer Classic was 100). This combination is not an accident. It is fully intended to drive absurd amounts of rake while taking care of those who generate the most rake, the high stakes players. After all, when you can stack every single team three times over? All you need to do is hit the right team with a few off picks, and boom – you’ve hit a six-figure payday.

Why am I making such a pissy deal about this? Because any competitive industry is built on having a balance of winners and losers. In the poker realm from where I originated, there is a natural economy that takes place that has two cycles to it. The first cycle is that recreational players like to take chances and gamble; they love the thrill of chasing a bad draw and occasionally hitting it. Professional players who know the odds work as serving entertainment for the rec players. They pay the price and thrill of occasionally losing when that draw hits, while they get paid on the times it doesn’t. It’s a cycle that works quite well, as players with money to burn want to take their shots, while more disciplined players make their living off those gambles.

The other cycle is that money flows from the bottom to the top. Players win at micro stakes and take occasional shots at small stakes. Small stakes players win there, then take occasional shots at middle stakes, and so on. Money flows all the way up to the high stakes games. Poker sites don’t mind this because all the while, that money is slowly moving up the chain they are making rake.

In Daily Fantasy Sports though, these two critical dynamics do not exist because of site greed. The first dynamic of recreational players and professional players co-existing in a situation where rec players win once in a while cannot exist. This is because of the presence of multi-entry tournaments. Players who have the bankroll to rack up max entries in contests buy themselves a major advantage. Several pros have already come out and praised naapstermaan as making a brilliant strategy decision in racking up as many entries as he could, saying it was an incredibly smart move. Why is it a smart move? Because it provides an unfair advantage. The only way a recreational player was going to win the Midsummer Classic was if all 15 games played stayed low-scoring enough for a non-stack to have a chance to win. Even my estimates of how low a game score had to be were off though, as the winning roster was not even a Phillies stack but a Tampa Bay stack with Brad Miller thrown in as a value short stop who just happened to hit two home runs. It only took an 8-run team stack with the right guy thrown in to win it.

The second cycle, money flowing to the top, is also a critical breakdown in this industry. Unlike in poker, where high stakes players don’t have time to waste in $1 tournaments and sit-and-go events, Daily Fantasy Sports pros can enter hundreds of contests, sometimes in under 30 seconds, with all of the flashy interfaces and improvements that are coming. These features, while convenient, allow the new players who just join a site to immediately be paired up and compete with some of the best in the industry with years of fantasy sports experience. Yet how are new users supposed to enjoy themselves when they lose hand over fist shortly after depositing? What reason do they have to stay or come back?

A healthy DFS economy would be one where new users were in scenarios that gave them a real chance to win, and one where they could be playing small games they did win from time to time. If sites were smart, they would realize that the longer it takes bad players to lose their money, the more retention there is and the more money that they will make off of rake. This provides long-term, healthy sustainability rather than a mad dash for cash. Instead, these sites are competing to set up structures that allow 20-30 people to have a shot at stupid money, while everyone else takes a shot at something they have no real shot at winning.

The bottom line is that this industry needs a change, and if they don’t get it, don’t be surprised if some of these behemoths don’t last more than two years. Sure, there is super funding behind some of these sites, but if things do not change at some point, sites will plateau and this marketing money will start to burn. You will hear guys at the top throw out the same garbage about how if you do not like a site do not play at it. That’s like a strip club opening up across from a high school and telling the parents if they do not like it, simply don’t go there. The misconceived success of the Midsummer Classic is a damage to our industry, and it just makes other major sites think that it is a way to generate rake quickly.

Continue on to Part 2…


Do not let people fool you with the overlay talk.

The money made off of rake in their satellites and Chase events more than covered the $25K or so in overlay that night. Our industry needs some major change, and here are some areas for which I believe we need to be pushing aggressively:

Single Entry Vs. Multiple Entries

Daily Fantasy SportsWay too many contests these days are multiple entry, for the obvious reason of trying to generate a bigger prize pool (enticement) while milking for max rake. These are lose-lose propositions for the recreational player, as he or she is forced to fire one bullet against a pro’s ten or more bullets. And if the player decides to go ten versus ten, then he will have to spend out of his comfort zone in satellites or buy-ins just to get his entries on a level playing field with the pros. A playing field which is not even level, mind you, as ten rec entries against ten pro entries exacerbates the edge that one versus one has.

By having a large competition where you can win only one seat, two major things happen. First, everyone is on level-footing for the contest itself, giving a rec player a much higher chance at pulling off an upset win, especially in a sport like baseball where anything can happen on any given day. Secondly, as pros win their entry, they would have no reason to keep playing satellites; these satellites would start to get softer and softer, allowing more rec players to win seats and have a chance.

In this scenario you would end up with a competition with less entries, and a smaller grand prize, but more users participating than in any other contest. (I believe 722 participated in the Classic). All it would take is one recreational player shipping a big prize to give the industry a poster child. It is a much healthier way to approach daily fantasy sports. Instead, we have a structure to cater to a very minor population of people who can afford to use a large, five-figure bankroll at their leisure.

The place I think where multi-entry should take place is in the small stakes tournaments. If that sounds like a contradiction, it is not. Hear me out. Imagine a $5 GPP, in which an entry gets you 15 entries (essentially .33 each). You can only enter for $5, and you get those 15 entries- no more, no less. Now you have a competition where you get to play lots of different rosters for a small price, but even more importantly, if set up properly, you get a competition where a high stakes pro player is not going to waste his time entering 15 different entries for $5. So now we have a competition where rec players get a lot of play for a little money, have a blast, and have a much better shot of winning. When they do hit big, then they go fire up a 22$ GPP and the money moves up the ladder. Will this happen? Of course not, because these greedy, money-grubbing sites can’t help but blow their wad over mass-entry GPPs. But it is absolutely what this industry needs. People need to have fun and win once in a while to stick around…

Small Stakes for Small Folks

There are a few sites that have experimented with ‘Beginner’ contests, where only users with less than a certain amount of wins can play. While this is a step in the right direction, these games are often hidden and not made prominent. They also don’t expand much on the premise. Why? Because we gotta take care of the handful of guys at the top who are making a killing and generate absurd amounts of rake of course! With the high number of new users these so-called marketing beasts generate on a weekly basis, there should be a bevy of beginner contests, from 50-50s to GPPs, that give them some time to learn the site, understand the scoring, and make some money competing against other beginners. The first week on a site for a new user should be a total blast, getting them locked in on how much fun it can be and not getting destroyed by the best of the best.

This industry needs to find ways to limit small stakes to small bankroll players and not have all these top players at the small stakes. There are lots of ways this could take place if sites were willing. We have the ability to create our own games on many sites; why not allow us to block certain players from joining? Similar to how a few sites out there do this for head-to-head, but at a larger level. Allow us to create 50-50s, and block people based on how many win they have, their average site buy-in, etc… If new users can match with new users, and losing players can match up with more losing players, the economy stays intact. While some of you winning players are freaking out that your games will “dry up,” remember that the allure of a big prize will get recreational guys to take their petty winnings and take shots. Money will still float to the high stakes, but it is so incredibly bad to have the best of the best winning $1 double-up donations.

Another way to do this would be to do more random matching. Instead of having 10-man leagues firing all over the place, have a 100-man league that randomly matches up 10×10-man leagues. This gives pros a chance to face pros, something that may not be worth it at the small stakes, and also deters multiple entries for the same reason. A few sites already do this for h2h and I think it needs to be expanded on. We have to get away from the total control sites give to pros who can just fire tons of H2H match-ups and wait for people to lose money.

Prove You Want Our Business

Nothing pisses me off more than someone who wants me to do them a favor, then turns around and treats me like they are doing me the favor. This is how DFS sites work in a nutshell. FanDuel, for example, works sooooo hard to bring in new players, then sets up their H2H in such a way that players pretty much end up playing nothing but top players, even in $1 matches. Plenty of these sites will run gimmicks by you, throwing around “generous deposit bonuses” which simply come out of the ridiculous rake in their contests. They will go on and on about their willingness to have overlays, and how that should take the place of rakeback or VIP programs, even though the ones who benefit most from overlays are again the ones who can max-entry everything.

It is time for a site to rise up and decide that they are not looking to make a mad cash rush on the industry, one that wants to take the time to earn long-term loyal and dependable users in order to ensure they are here years on down the road. By taking some of the rake of the top players and giving rec players free entries into contests; having small stakes promotions that better suit recreational players; and most importantly, showing that a healthy, fun site is more important then squeezing every penny out of the bank- this site could prove that it’s not the site that has the biggest prize pool who wins: it is the one that puts the customer first.

The fact is, us players are making ourselves out to be the proverbial whore, throwing ourselves at every major DFS site and not making them work for our money. The more we do this, the higher the rake will be, the faster they will try to suck every bit out of us they can, and the worse this industry will get. We need to start making ourselves valuable and start rewarding sites who are willing to take care of the little guys. If we do not, greed will ruin this industry, and the DFS players at the very top, and the companies who own these sites, will be the only ones who win.


From fantasy dojo

[The Giant]

TT, what are you trying to say? Multiple entries is bad and the rake is too high?

[greenhippo]

Tits, fukkin nobody read that obese dribble you just posted. Why aren't you a real man who pays what he owes?

[ttwarrior1]

pay him 200 cash right now if i could for the points i owe. Was told i couldn't do it. There is some restriction on his account as it will not let me send him points. I'll take a pic of that popup and post it if you like.

sbr probaly stole the pts i had when i left and gave them to somebody because i didn't use them

Giant. I did not write that and the guy that did even took down page 2 i believe on his site as he was getting threats over that.

I just agree with what he says is all.

ps: temp unblock to see what u said, back to block for time being hippo

[The Giant]

TT, quit saying things like you would pay him $200 right now if you could.

You could make an arrangement off the site, no one would know...but you would never do that. Quit trying to come off like the victim.

[ttwarrior1]

tried sending 2,

[ChalkyDog]

It will be soon enough.

Conservative states like Arizona, Louisiana, Tennessee, North Dakota, etc don't allow fantasy sports gambling. (however, if you just enter another state i.e. Illinois for me instead of Arizona, there is no immediate issue).

Too much money in it not to get this regulated, it just takes time. So, enjoy it now.

[tony_come]

Shit don't make sense

[RudyRuetigger]

I am not reading this thread

Send it to newbie subforum

Giant do not ask dumb questions again

[tony_come]

Giant dont ask dumb questions

[Easy-Rider 66]

Let sleeping dogs lie.

[easyliving]

no doubt its more of a gamble than sports betting.

[tblues2005]

I think it is a legit debate of why that is legal and sports wagering isn't. This is why the Supreme Court could say that is not right when they hear the New Jersey case. That is why they could open it up to them and any other state that wants it. That sure would open a lot of tax revenue that could be taken. When 98 percent of all wagers in this country is done in an illegal way that needs to change no doubt. That is an awful lot of income the government could have if they opened it up. Being bought out by the sports leagues when it hasn't been a factor in other countries doesn't make sense. I think it boils down to the colleges not wanting to pay any of their players and they see the writing on the wall that if this happens they will have to. With all the income they make you would think that they would take care of the ones that make them that in the first place. I am kind of shocked that it hasn't been tried in the last 10 years on this issue to get it to the Supreme Court. Maybe it has but it hasn't gotten that far but I can easily seeing it now with New Jersey passing it with voters which goes a long way just like the pot laws.

[Monitor-Tan]

because the outcome of one game doesn't influence if you win or not.