[Sam Odom]

it's just semantics. the -ev is affected in that it's reduced. it's not affected in that it's still negative.

no, it makes the overall game less negative.

For that to be true... you must show a +EV expectation in the LONG RUN for ODDS bets

[Kaabee]

i see what you're saying. i'm thinking in terms of house edge which is reduced since you are putting most of your money on a 0 EV bet.

[Sam Odom]

Just food for thought...

Kaabee

[bigboydan]

Just food for thought...

Kaabee

Really Mr.B :

[Kaabee]

for anyone who disagrees with Sam:

player A bets $5 on pass line only. player B bets $5 on pass line and $500 on odds. after a large number of rolls they will have lost the same amount.

[Sam Odom]

Sammy thinks where there is a blurring of thought is...

Taking into account passline & taking odds are 2 separate bets --- Using Kaabee example: if someone did as he said bets $5 on pass line and $500 on odds (505 total) vs another person betting $505 on the passline each time. The latter would lose way more $$$ but the -EV of the passline does not change

[jjgold]

Sammy just play the passline
Break it up into sessions maybe 20 sessions and then walk away

So you basically have 20 passline bats until the point is made or not made

[jose21_us]

Best game in the casino and funnest in my opinion. I will be in vegas this sunday-thursday and this will be the only table game I play. I try also just to play in downtown.

[jjgold]

Sammy a pro player

[Roadtrip635]

Money Management is key and being properly Bankrolled -- You have to be at the table when a hot roll begins , so don't bust-out... Might take 2 or 3 or 4 hrs , then again it might be the 1st roll when you buy-in

At minimum you need 10x the amount of $$ you'll have on the table in action at the same time... Say you do $5.00 Pass + $25 Odds then Place two #s for $30 each. Total of 90.00 dollars. $90 x 10 = $900.00 -- Personally I would want $1,200.00

Ok , say you do that ^ -- Do NOT increase your exposure until you have collected 3x from same shooter then Place one more number or do a 1/2 Press. Never Press twice in a row. Collect one FULL hit then 1/2 press. So it would be, Collect , 1/2 press , Collect , 1/2 press , Collect , 1/2 press , Collect , 1/2 press ...

There is nothing you can do to FORCE a hot roll. Some idiots believe if they raise their bet amounts and/or press too fast they can force a hot roll

Solid advice. Like Sammy said it's absolutely key to be properly bankrolled and practice sound money mgmt. You don't want to press too fast, the goal is to be at the table when that hot roll begins. It's truly amazing how much money you can make in such a short time when somebody gets hot, but you have to be there and have some patience. There's absolutely nothing like it, when someone goes on one of those epic rolls, you have all the points pressed to ridiculous levels, you keep having to cash out smaller chips for bigger ones because you don't have any more room in your rack and you realize you have quite a bit more sitting on the table in bets than you originally even bought into the game for. Then you got to start thinking how long can this keep going and when to start pulling some of those bets, but it's tough when each point is paying such a big chunk of chips each time it hits. If you're playing somewhere that has Fire Bets and you hit 4 points then 5 points and you just know the table is going to explode if you can hit that 6th point.....

God, I love Craps, I really want to play right now. That game is like a drug, addicting as hell.

[TheCentaur]

Best way to bet is the minimum bet on the pass line, then back up with max odds. Once you hit 2 or 3 points double ur bet. If you catch a hot roll of 7 or 8 points being made you make a lot.

This minimizes house edge, you get a gamble every roll even though you aren't betting new money every roll, and it satisfies the gambler's need to press and bet more. On a 100x odds table you could play non stop for 30 hours and expect to only be down 1 bet with odds

[Kaabee]

Best way to bet is the minimum bet on the pass line, then back up with max odds. Once you hit 2 or 3 points double ur bet. If you catch a hot roll of 7 or 8 points being made you make a lot.

This minimizes house edge, you get a gamble every roll even though you aren't betting new money every roll, and it satisfies the gambler's need to press and bet more. On a 100x odds table you could play non stop for 30 hours and expect to only be down 1 bet with odds

1 pass line bet or 1 odds bet? As has been discussed previously, it makes no difference how much you bet on the odds in determining how much you can expect to lose in a session.

[TheCentaur]

1 pass line bet or 1 odds bet? As has been discussed previously, it makes no difference how much you bet on the odds in determining how much you can expect to lose in a session.

One bet=Pass line bet with full odds

If you bet $1 on the line with $100 odds then that = $101

Actually I was off, you could play for 150 hrs straight and only expect to be down one full bet

You are right, whether you take odds or not makes no difference in the expected loss, but it makes a world of difference in whether or not you could win. Playing for 150 hours just betting the pass line for $1 you have virtually no chance of coming out ahead, but backing it up with 100x odds you having pretty close to an even chance of coming out ahead

[Kaabee]

One bet=Pass line bet with full odds

If you bet $1 on the line with $100 odds then that = $101

Actually I was off, you could play for 150 hrs straight and only expect to be down one full bet

You are right, whether you take odds or not makes no difference in the expected loss, but it makes a world of difference in whether or not you could win. Playing for 150 hours just betting the pass line for $1 you have virtually no chance of coming out ahead, but backing it up with 100x odds you having pretty close to an even chance of coming out ahead

It would seem like it, but it's not the case.

Player A bets $1 pass line, no odds.
Player B bets $1 pass line, 100x odds.

After 150 hours they will have lost exactly the same amount. They will have lost 1.4% of their pass line bets and they will both have lost $0 on the odds bets. One because they aren't betting it, the other because it's a neutral EV bet.

[TheCentaur]

It would seem like it, but it's not the case.

Player A bets $1 pass line, no odds.
Player B bets $1 pass line, 100x odds.

After 150 hours they will have lost exactly the same amount. They will have lost 1.4% of their pass line bets and they will both have lost $0 on the odds bets. One because they aren't betting it, the other because it's a neutral EV bet.

Right I said their expected loss remains the same

The difference I'm referring to is variance though

Betting a smaller bet with a higher edge vs. a bigger bet with a proportionately smaller edge

You can end up winning with 100x odds over a long period of time, you can't end up winning just betting that pass line bet portion

[Kaabee]

true, because you only need to be ahead a small number of odds bets to make up your pass line losses.

[TheCentaur]

true, because you only need to be ahead a small number of odds bets to make up your pass line losses.

Exactly

[Albert Pujols]

Are you (anyone) saying...

A 0/EV wager makes a previous -EV wager less Negative ?

Sam, your theory is flawed. Whatever the amount wagered, the higher percentage that is bet on odds means the less net -ev. Ya the guy that bets $1 and doesn't bet odds loses the same over infinity as the guy that bets $1 and takes 100x odds. But that is irrelevant. If $60 is the total bet every time, you lose a lot less at $1 pass line and the rest odds than you do at $10 pass line with max 5 times odds.

[BriGuy]

knowing when to turn off bets and when to maximize them

It never ceases to amaze me how ignorant people are of probability and statistics, as evidenced above.

There is no skill in craps and no "right time" to place bet and "right time" to turn it off (except for things like it is never a good idea to play the pass line after the point is established). Like every single other house table game in the casino (except for blackjack when played by a talented card counter), there are only varying degrees of negative expectation bets.

NOTE: I know that playing odds is a break-even proposition in the long run, but you can only play odds if you play the line so the whole combination produces a long term negative outcome. Of course, it is worth noting that that combination is among the smallest house advantage bets in the whole casino.

[BriGuy]

Fukk, never thought craps was this complicated.

It doesn't have to be complicated if you're willing to stick to the basic, general bet. There are something like 60 different bets on a craps table, but the main action is playing the pass line.

I'd say just play the line, back it up with odds, and then don't worry about all the other stuff everyone else is doing.

[BriGuy]

I believe the Riviera has something ridiculous like 100x odds.

[Sam Odom]

Ya the guy that bets $1 and doesn't bet odds loses the same over infinity as the guy that bets $1 and takes 100x odds. But that is irrelevant.

Come-on Albert ... Think about what you said

The only winners at craps are those on the temporary + side of Standard Deviation - Nice ride when it happens, sorta like catching the perfect wave